ROCKFISH Games have now launched EVERSPACE 2 and it looks awesome! One of their original Kickstarter promises did not make it though, with Native Linux support being cancelled as they will support it with Proton instead.
Despite repeatedly mentioning a Native Linux build would come, even as recently as mid February, they decided not to go through with it. Why? They said Vulkan support in Unreal Engine 4 is "broken and incomplete" and it gave between "50% - 80%" of the performance compared with just running the Windows version in Proton. There were other issues, like VRAM leaks causing crashes. After they spoke with Epic Games, they said it's clear Unreal Engine 4 won't get fixed up with the focus now on Unreal Engine 5 and ROCKFISH don't have the time to fix up the game engine.
They shared a screenshot as a quick example showing the Native build with Vulkan, their Windows build with DXVK and the Windows build with VKD3D-Proton and the performance difference speaks for itself really:
The good news is they plan to ensure it does work well with Proton and they will continue to optimize it there. Any Kickstarter backers not happy can request a refund too which is good to see.
As for Steam Deck, dedicated optimizations for it are also still planned.
For players on other stores like GOG, it does make things more complicated, since Steam is the only store to officially support a translation layer like Proton. However, you can try with Heroic Games Launcher.
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TL;DR - WINE IS native by the actual technical definition of what an API does. If WINE isn't native, then no APIs are.
Appreciate what you're trying to say here, but I doubt anyone, at all, ever, will agree that "Wine is native". I certainly don't. Call it emulation, call it translation, whatever. But I'm not calling it native.
On the other hand, these days... I don't really care. But a lot of people out there do.
4 Likes, Who?
Thats my internal definitionInternally define away. Knock yourself out. Just realise that it's meaningless and irrelevant to everyone in the real world.
Offering refunds isn't a sign of anything? Yes, it is. It's a sign that RFG are doing the best they can to be the good guys here. Epic screwed them, and they've gone above and beyond their responsibilities to you, a kickstarter backer with absolutely no rights. They had NO obligation to offer refunds. None. But they're doing it anyway.
They know it only on release is sign of incompetency.RFG are far from incompetent. Pretty sure you enjoyed E1, right? And now I'm enjoying E2, an absolutely incredible experience. Criticising a dev for decisions is one thing. Blatantly insulting their capability in the face of evidence is quite another. You can get right in the sea with that childish attitude.
But still they lost credibilityOnly with those who stubbornly refuse to acknowledge the extraordinary lengths these devs went to in order to try to deliver their product.
You're hating on the wrong people here, and it's frankly out of order.
No refund is not sign of anything. It's standard. When we had last game with canceled linux port without refund? I can't remember any case.
What childish atitude? They get my trust with E1, i buyed E2 on kickstarter, and right now, they lost my trust, because they are incopetent. Incopetenci is not universal, they are competent with making Windows game, but nobody can trust them with E3 on linux.
Poor support for the engine does not appear a few days before release. The fact that they only found out now is the incompetence. If they had come up with the same reasoning six months ago, I wouldn't have had a problem. I don't mind a proton, I play E2 through it. It bothers me that a few weeks ago they has been "reasonably confident", today linux is impossible.
Now I know that E2 is at least playable through a proton, but I can't trust them with E3. So what I'm writing about is that the next time they don't see a dollar from me until I see the rating on protondb.
I don't hate them. I rigthfully cryticise them. Unless Epic broke into their office and converted E2 to a engine with broken vulkan a few days before the release, I just can't trust them in the competence of porting to linux, and this is entirely on their head, not Epic.
I was practically in the same situation at KC:D. With just one minor difference. Warhorse didn't tell me a few weeks before release that they didn't know of any problem. On the contrary, half a year or a year before the release, I heard criticism from one of the studio heads at Pragoffest about not keeping promises from Crytek. That small difference changes my view of the developers quite strongly, and that's why warhorse didn't get the same criticism from me, because they knew they had a problem.
1 Likes, Who?
Idk,
I get that they promised a native build. But, i guess you have to decide what is more important: a native build for Linux or proper support for the platform. Granted, you have to decide what “proper support” means, but at its basic is “make the game run well on Linux”.
The mere fact that they have a comparison of the proton vs Linux build indicates that they have been indeed working on it, and have decided that the best performance comes via proton. So, this does bird feel like they are abandoning Linux or lying or whatever. It looks like they are trying to make it work well.
My takeaway from this is that — once again — Epic Games is playing a role in the quality of Linux gaming.
That's a terrible choice. Because you're paying the same and you're a 2nd class citizen. I bought all Feral Interactive games. I haven't played them all to be quite honest, my backlog is huge, and i suspect i won't play them all. Yet, i rather pay full price, 50+ euros, for a native build, with proper support, than being lied to in a KS project and then finding out at best i get to play the game under a fancified WINE.
I have the 1st Everspace, it's neat. This one looked neat as well, but no tux, no bucks. I still have my Quake 3 and Descent from Loki Games, Majesty Gold from LGP and tons others. Port them, and i won't be the only customer for sure. But this? Well. There are tons of other developers that need money and actually make native Linux builds. Probably not the latest and greatest AAA, but it's enough. If i want an AAA i might as well just get a console and save myself the hassle (and the waste of time)
Being a developer myself, i understand the pain. Knowing both UE4, UE5 and Unity from 1st hand (developer) experience, i get it. It's painful and sometimes production leads to towards legacy dead-ends where you're forced to make a choice you don't want to make. They probably ran into this situation and have my sympathy. But they still won't have my money. Perhaps we'll see a Everspace 3 in UE5 with a proper Linux native build.
Sorry guys.
1 Likes, Who?
EagleDelta Apr 12, 2023
TL;DR - WINE IS native by the actual technical definition of what an API does. If WINE isn't native, then no APIs are.
Appreciate what you're trying to say here, but I doubt anyone, at all, ever, will agree that "Wine is native". I certainly don't. Call it emulation, call it translation, whatever. But I'm not calling it native.
On the other hand, these days... I don't really care. But a lot of people out there do.
Oh, I know that many people here would not see it as "Wine is native". From a philisophical perspective that's right, from a Technical perspective, though, WINE/DXVK/vkd3d are "native" in that they are APIs that are making native calls and that's exactly the purpose of an API is to provide an interface between two or more pieces of software.
0 Likes
TL;DR - WINE IS native by the actual technical definition of what an API does. If WINE isn't native, then no APIs are.
Appreciate what you're trying to say here, but I doubt anyone, at all, ever, will agree that "Wine is native". I certainly don't. Call it emulation, call it translation, whatever. But I'm not calling it native.
On the other hand, these days... I don't really care. But a lot of people out there do.
By the very definition of what WINE is it is native.. its not a emulator by any means what so ever.. thus anything that runs through WINE is running natively . emulators are not native due to them emulating actual hardware .. where as wine translates it all to Linux api calls. tbh people need to get over themselves and just admit running windows games on Linux is far more superior to running crappy half a** linux binary ports. hardly any of the actual Linux binary ports I own run out the box without issue due to software upgrades on Linux.. alot of those same games run Out the box no issue under proton
Last edited by tohur on 13 April 2023 at 4:37 am UTC
0 Likes
TL;DR - WINE IS native by the actual technical definition of what an API does. If WINE isn't native, then no APIs are.
Appreciate what you're trying to say here, but I doubt anyone, at all, ever, will agree that "Wine is native". I certainly don't. Call it emulation, call it translation, whatever. But I'm not calling it native.
On the other hand, these days... I don't really care. But a lot of people out there do.
By the very definition of what WINE is it is native.. its not a emulator by any means what so ever.. thus anything that runs through WINE is running natively . emulators are not native due to them emulating actual hardware .. where as wine translates it all to Linux api calls. tbh people need to get over themselves and just admit running windows games on Linux is far more superior to running crappy half a** linux binary ports. hardly any of the actual Linux binary ports I own run out the box without issue due to software upgrades on Linux.. alot of those same games run Out the box no issue under proton
It is not about native linux ports and definitions of what is and what isn’t. It is entirely because they lied about the Linux port until after release. And people do not need to get over it. Taking a stand and not buying their game now or in the future is the right thing to do if you’re upset by the lie.
Furthermore if you think Proton is good enough then you are very wrong. Microsoft can keep pushing the playing field back and Linux will be forced to keep catching up. This is the reason it took until the 2010’s to finally get decent graphical software on Linux because of the attitude of supporting a single platform and shrugging your shoulders when FOSS alternatives aren’t good enough.
In fact I just bought the original to give it a try but now I’m going to refund it.
Last edited by itscalledreality on 13 April 2023 at 5:02 am UTC
1 Likes, Who?
In fact I just bought the original to give it a try but now I’m going to refund it.
I understand people not buying Everspace 2 due to it not being native. But refunding Everspace 1 which has a native port because Everspace 2 doesn't is a head-scratching decision to me. Are you trying to punish the devs for not delivering on their promise for Everspace 2 being native? Because I can assure you, they will not make the connection. In fact, people refunding Everspace 1 will make it even less likely that Everspace 3 will be native. On the other hand, more Linux users buying Everspace 1 now instead of Everspace 2 like you did, is what might make them at least consider it. I really can't understand your decision here.
2 Likes, Who?
In fact I just bought the original to give it a try but now I’m going to refund it.
I understand people not buying Everspace 2 due to it not being native. But refunding Everspace 1 which has a native port because Everspace 2 doesn't is a head-scratching decision to me. Are you trying to punish the devs for not delivering on their promise for Everspace 2 being native? Because I can assure you, they will not make the connection. In fact, people refunding Everspace 1 will make it even less likely that Everspace 3 will be native. On the other hand, more Linux users buying Everspace 1 now instead of Everspace 2 like you did, is what might make them at least consider it. I really can't understand your decision here.
I want to give them $0, and will not be buying anything else from this company. I'm reversing the deal I made with them just as they did. I don't care if they figure it out.
Last edited by itscalledreality on 13 April 2023 at 8:02 am UTC
1 Likes, Who?
Oh, I know that many people here would not see it as "Wine is native". From a philisophical perspective that's right, from a Technical perspective, though, WINE/DXVK/vkd3d are "native" in that they are APIs that are making native calls and that's exactly the purpose of an API is to provide an interface between two or more pieces of software.
Sure, but my point was that the "technical" explanation is moot. No-one will describe a wine-wrapped game as native.
tbh people need to get over themselves and just admit running windows games on Linux is far more superior to running crappy half a** linux binary portsAnything half-assed will be inferior. But a good native port will outperform a good proton wrap any day simply because no translations are required. I have a beefy enough PC that I genuinely don't care (I'm "over myself") but there are plenty of gamers out there who will feel the pain from Proton's performance penalty, whether it's 5%, or 20%.
3 Likes, Who?
What childish atitude?Insulting a well-established gaming studio because Epic's failed promises led to said studio not releasing on our platform. Childish.
Also, ignoring the extraordinary lengths that the studio went to trying to work around those failed promises.
1 Likes, Who?
What childish atitude?Insulting a well-established gaming studio because Epic's failed promises led to said studio not releasing on our platform. Childish.
Also, ignoring the extraordinary lengths that the studio went to trying to work around those failed promises.
Childish is strawmaning somebody else. And here we have your strawman argument. I did not attack studio because they didn't port it. I'm ok with proton solution. I already explained my problem is with attitude of ROCKFISH. They probably didn't even build it under linux whole time and tried it on last couple of weeks. That is when they discovered issue with engine. I did not expect same work to linux as with windows. I even don't expect alpha or beta release on linux. But there is bare minimum continuous work which I expect and they did not do it.How we know it? Because couple of weeks ago we had message from them that they don't know about problem porting it on linux.
Everspace 2 has been developed for years, kickstarter has been in 2019. Unreal engine 5 has been revealed in 2020, early access in 2021 and full release in 2022. Certainly, if they knew about engine issues from start, when engine has been still actual product, they had much better chance to get patches from Epic. You cant argue epic lied them, when they had engine at least 3 years in hands and they did 0 work to check compatibility not only of engine, but also of their own work.
From features perspective unreal 4 is death project now, but has not been death in 2020. I did not expect them to have priority on linux. I expected them one in couple of month or two to atleast make linux build and test if there is some show stopper issue. And here we are, with show stopper issue, on dead engine.
Last edited by Arten on 13 April 2023 at 12:44 pm UTC
0 Likes
What childish atitude?Insulting a well-established gaming studio because Epic's failed promises led to said studio not releasing on our platform. Childish.
Also, ignoring the extraordinary lengths that the studio went to trying to work around those failed promises.
There’s nothing childish, this is a consumer hobby. People paid money for an idea and didn’t get their purchase. Telling people they should just buy the game and be happy with it because “developers work hard” is childish fan talk.
Last edited by itscalledreality on 13 April 2023 at 3:26 pm UTC
1 Likes, Who?
It is not about native linux ports and definitions of what is and what isn’t. It is entirely because they lied about the Linux port until after release.When you say "lied" you're kind of conjuring up this Snidely Whiplash Rockfish developer twirling his mustachios while snickering "I told those credulous fools I would be releasing a Linux native version of my game; little do they know I have no intention of doing so! Muahahahaha!!!!"
It seems quite unlikely that the scenario was much like this. To the contrary, it seems as if there was an effort made--indeed, a port made. It just sucked and they couldn't fix it, and they were rather late in either or both of facing that reality and conveying it to the rest of us.
And that's annoying, sure. So I mean, be upset and boycot them if you want, none of my business. But don't misrepresent them while you're doing it.
4 Likes, Who?
It is not about native linux ports and definitions of what is and what isn’t. It is entirely because they lied about the Linux port until after release.When you say "lied" you're kind of conjuring up this Snidely Whiplash Rockfish developer twirling his mustachios while snickering "I told those credulous fools I would be releasing a Linux native version of my game; little do they know I have no intention of doing so! Muahahahaha!!!!"
It seems quite unlikely that the scenario was much like this. To the contrary, it seems as if there was an effort made--indeed, a port made. It just sucked and they couldn't fix it, and they were rather late in either or both of facing that reality and conveying it to the rest of us.
And that's annoying, sure. So I mean, be upset and boycot them if you want, none of my business. But don't misrepresent them while you're doing it.
I’m not misrepresenting anyone. I don’t represent the developers I represent myself and my feelings are that they lied. Twist the lie into whatever half-truth you personally need. What was misrepresented was Linux support. I don’t care how you view the developers as nice lads in a bad situation or evil lads with malicious intent. For me it’s about double speak and poor communication and inability to deliver which is quite rampant in the software industry.
Last edited by itscalledreality on 13 April 2023 at 4:28 pm UTC
1 Likes, Who?
One important way for communication to be poor is sloppiness, lack of precision. If you're going to complain about poor communication you should try not to practice it.It is not about native linux ports and definitions of what is and what isn’t. It is entirely because they lied about the Linux port until after release.When you say "lied" you're kind of conjuring up this Snidely Whiplash Rockfish developer twirling his mustachios while snickering "I told those credulous fools I would be releasing a Linux native version of my game; little do they know I have no intention of doing so! Muahahahaha!!!!"
It seems quite unlikely that the scenario was much like this. To the contrary, it seems as if there was an effort made--indeed, a port made. It just sucked and they couldn't fix it, and they were rather late in either or both of facing that reality and conveying it to the rest of us.
And that's annoying, sure. So I mean, be upset and boycot them if you want, none of my business. But don't misrepresent them while you're doing it.
I’m not misrepresenting anyone. I don’t represent the developers I represent myself and my feelings are that they lied. Twist the lie into whatever half-truth you personally need. What was misrepresented was Linux support. I don’t care how you view the developers as nice lads in a bad situation or evil lads malicious intent. For me it’s about double speak and poor communication and inability to deliver which is quite rampant in the software industry.
0 Likes
Anything half-assed will be inferior. But a good native port will outperform a good proton wrap any day simply because no translations are required. I have a beefy enough PC that I genuinely don't care (I'm "over myself") but there are plenty of gamers out there who will feel the pain from Proton's performance penalty, whether it's 5%, or 20%.
And that is the issue.. 99% of Linux ports are inferior and has been inferior from the start.. 99% of the ports we get are half assed and have been half assed since Steam hit linux.. I have almost 600 games in my steam library and the ONLY decent Linux port I have in there is Dead Cells.. the rest I much rather just run through proton and get better graphics and better performance and most the Linux ports I have don't even work properly. yea Proton is superior and will stay that way until Windows is no longer the primary Desktop OS on the market
0 Likes
One important way for communication to be poor is sloppiness, lack of precision. If you're going to complain about poor communication you should try not to practice it.It is not about native linux ports and definitions of what is and what isn’t. It is entirely because they lied about the Linux port until after release.When you say "lied" you're kind of conjuring up this Snidely Whiplash Rockfish developer twirling his mustachios while snickering "I told those credulous fools I would be releasing a Linux native version of my game; little do they know I have no intention of doing so! Muahahahaha!!!!"
It seems quite unlikely that the scenario was much like this. To the contrary, it seems as if there was an effort made--indeed, a port made. It just sucked and they couldn't fix it, and they were rather late in either or both of facing that reality and conveying it to the rest of us.
And that's annoying, sure. So I mean, be upset and boycot them if you want, none of my business. But don't misrepresent them while you're doing it.
I’m not misrepresenting anyone. I don’t represent the developers I represent myself and my feelings are that they lied. Twist the lie into whatever half-truth you personally need. What was misrepresented was Linux support. I don’t care how you view the developers as nice lads in a bad situation or evil lads malicious intent. For me it’s about double speak and poor communication and inability to deliver which is quite rampant in the software industry.
Oof okay well I’ll start with blocking you and your insulting behavior. Now that you don’t have to communicate with me you can spend more time defending and playing this game. I see it’s a top seller on Steam so the loss of my time and money should be nothing.
0 Likes
EagleDelta Apr 13, 2023
TL;DR - WINE IS native by the actual technical definition of what an API does. If WINE isn't native, then no APIs are.
Appreciate what you're trying to say here, but I doubt anyone, at all, ever, will agree that "Wine is native". I certainly don't. Call it emulation, call it translation, whatever. But I'm not calling it native.
On the other hand, these days... I don't really care. But a lot of people out there do.
By the very definition of what WINE is it is native.. its not a emulator by any means what so ever.. thus anything that runs through WINE is running natively . emulators are not native due to them emulating actual hardware .. where as wine translates it all to Linux api calls. tbh people need to get over themselves and just admit running windows games on Linux is far more superior to running crappy half a** linux binary ports. hardly any of the actual Linux binary ports I own run out the box without issue due to software upgrades on Linux.. alot of those same games run Out the box no issue under proton
It is not about native linux ports and definitions of what is and what isn’t. It is entirely because they lied about the Linux port until after release. And people do not need to get over it. Taking a stand and not buying their game now or in the future is the right thing to do if you’re upset by the lie.
Furthermore if you think Proton is good enough then you are very wrong. Microsoft can keep pushing the playing field back and Linux will be forced to keep catching up. This is the reason it took until the 2010’s to finally get decent graphical software on Linux because of the attitude of supporting a single platform and shrugging your shoulders when FOSS alternatives aren’t good enough.
In fact I just bought the original to give it a try but now I’m going to refund it.
I have a problem with it being called "Lying". I work as a software dev, and sometimes a promise that was supposed to be fulfilled can no longer be provided due to issues outside of the control of the "promise". That's just reality. It doesn't mean people were lied to, it means that despite best efforts, the goal could not be achieved.
I'm dealing with that process right now at work, where we are doing work to see if a project that was already decided on can be achieved the way it was laid out or if plans will have to change. Lying would be them promising it and not even trying to port it. They tried to port it, ran into problems, contacted support for the tooling they need, and were told "sorry, we're not fixing those bugs". As for starting it early, there are only so many game engines out there to choose from and all of them have technical trade-offs. Some companies have the knowledge and expertise to create their own, I highly doubt RFG has the needed experience to build their own engine and deliver the game on the timeframe they did.
3 Likes, Who?
TL;DR - WINE IS native by the actual technical definition of what an API does. If WINE isn't native, then no APIs are.
Appreciate what you're trying to say here, but I doubt anyone, at all, ever, will agree that "Wine is native". I certainly don't. Call it emulation, call it translation, whatever. But I'm not calling it native.
On the other hand, these days... I don't really care. But a lot of people out there do.
By the very definition of what WINE is it is native.. its not a emulator by any means what so ever.. thus anything that runs through WINE is running natively . emulators are not native due to them emulating actual hardware .. where as wine translates it all to Linux api calls. tbh people need to get over themselves and just admit running windows games on Linux is far more superior to running crappy half a** linux binary ports. hardly any of the actual Linux binary ports I own run out the box without issue due to software upgrades on Linux.. alot of those same games run Out the box no issue under proton
It is not about native linux ports and definitions of what is and what isn’t. It is entirely because they lied about the Linux port until after release. And people do not need to get over it. Taking a stand and not buying their game now or in the future is the right thing to do if you’re upset by the lie.
Furthermore if you think Proton is good enough then you are very wrong. Microsoft can keep pushing the playing field back and Linux will be forced to keep catching up. This is the reason it took until the 2010’s to finally get decent graphical software on Linux because of the attitude of supporting a single platform and shrugging your shoulders when FOSS alternatives aren’t good enough.
In fact I just bought the original to give it a try but now I’m going to refund it.
I have a problem with it being called "Lying". I work as a software dev, and sometimes a promise that was supposed to be fulfilled can no longer be provided due to issues outside of the control of the "promise". That's just reality. It doesn't mean people were lied to, it means that despite best efforts, the goal could not be achieved.
I'm dealing with that process right now at work, where we are doing work to see if a project that was already decided on can be achieved the way it was laid out or if plans will have to change. Lying would be them promising it and not even trying to port it. They tried to port it, ran into problems, contacted support for the tooling they need, and were told "sorry, we're not fixing those bugs". As for starting it early, there are only so many game engines out there to choose from and all of them have technical trade-offs. Some companies have the knowledge and expertise to create their own, I highly doubt RFG has the needed experience to build their own engine and deliver the game on the timeframe they did.
Right, so software developers never have to do due diligence up front when they ask for money. They just have to do a quick web search for UE4-Linux and then they can request money for a port because a list of features makes it appear so. Like I said (in another comment) it’s rampant in the industry which doesn’t make that mode of operation necessarily right because it’s popular. Glad they’re offering a refund though, at least that’s fair.
Last edited by itscalledreality on 13 April 2023 at 4:45 pm UTC
0 Likes
Whatever.One important way for communication to be poor is sloppiness, lack of precision. If you're going to complain about poor communication you should try not to practice it.It is not about native linux ports and definitions of what is and what isn’t. It is entirely because they lied about the Linux port until after release.When you say "lied" you're kind of conjuring up this Snidely Whiplash Rockfish developer twirling his mustachios while snickering "I told those credulous fools I would be releasing a Linux native version of my game; little do they know I have no intention of doing so! Muahahahaha!!!!"
It seems quite unlikely that the scenario was much like this. To the contrary, it seems as if there was an effort made--indeed, a port made. It just sucked and they couldn't fix it, and they were rather late in either or both of facing that reality and conveying it to the rest of us.
And that's annoying, sure. So I mean, be upset and boycot them if you want, none of my business. But don't misrepresent them while you're doing it.
I’m not misrepresenting anyone. I don’t represent the developers I represent myself and my feelings are that they lied. Twist the lie into whatever half-truth you personally need. What was misrepresented was Linux support. I don’t care how you view the developers as nice lads in a bad situation or evil lads malicious intent. For me it’s about double speak and poor communication and inability to deliver which is quite rampant in the software industry.
Oof okay well I’ll start with blocking you and your insulting behavior. Now that you don’t have to communicate with me you can spend more time defending and playing this game. I see it’s a top seller on Steam so the loss of my time and money should be nothing.
0 Likes
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