Quite a controversial topic currently floating around is that a change proposal has been made for Fedora Workstation 40 to have some "privacy-preserving" telemetry to "enable limited data collection of anonymous Fedora Workstation usage metrics".
This has generated quite the buzz across pretty much everywhere I look, with many people on both sides jumping in to argue about it. One thing to remember though, is that this is a proposal, nothing has been set in stone and the whole idea could be scrapped or changed a lot as discussions go on.
In summary:
Fedora is an open source community project, and nobody is interested in violating user privacy. We do not want to collect data about individual users. We want to collect only aggregate usage metrics that are actually needed to achieve specific Fedora improvement objectives, and no more. We understand that if we violate our users’ trust, then we won’t have many users left, so if metrics collection is approved, we will need to be very careful to roll this out in a way that respects our users at all times. (For example, we should not collect users’ search queries, because that would be creepy.).
We believe an open source community can ethically collect limited aggregate data on how its software is used without involving big data companies or building creepy tracking profiles that are not in the best interests of users. Users will have the option to disable data upload before any data is sent for the first time. Our service will be operated by Fedora on Fedora infrastructure, and will not depend on Google Analytics or any other controversial third-party services. And in contrast to proprietary software operating systems, you can redirect the data collection to your own private metrics server instead of Fedora’s to see precisely what data is being collected from you, because the server components are open source too.
As for what they might actually be collecting there's all sorts but they're not yet being exactly clear on what, because approval for it hasn't happened as it's early days for the proposal. If they do get approval, it seems then they will work out a clear idea of what to collect. They did suggest some of it may be things like what IDEs are popular, the click-through rate of recommended banners in GNOME Software, what panels are most used in gnome-control-center, what type of hard drive you have, count how many users use a particular locale so they can optimize language support and so on.
Telemetry is not actually a bad thing but the way it has been used in the past is what gives it a bad name. Some companies absolutely abused data collection in the past, and plenty still do. There are ways to do it properly though which they seem to be trying to do by fully informing people here.
What's a little confusing though is their part about opt-in versus opt-out. The way it has been explained could have been better. It seems they want to go for opt-out, with it turned on to collect the data by default but not actually upload anything until you've gone through a privacy page when installing Fedora to confirm it. Disabling it will then send them nothing but it will still collect it locally ready for if you turn it on later. For existing users upgrading, it will be opt-in though, as they don't currently have a mechanism for getting user consent through upgrades. This opt-in / opt-out also has it's own discussion area since it's a big thing.
How do you feel about this idea? Let me know in the comments.
Article taken from GamingOnLinux.com.
Quoting: RenardDesMersI must say I was quite baffled by the proponent's opinion that's basically "We want quality data, opt-in is useless data so if it's not opt-out, I don't want it".
Wellll, I can see it. If you're trying for statistics across a whole population, and what you instead get is a self-selected subgroup which almost certainly has differences in tendencies from the whole but you don't know how, that's gonna be poor data. And then if you make decisions about how to do UI based on the usage patterns of the subgroup, you're fairly likely to screw it up.
Quoting: F.UltraTo this and every other "IBM IS BEHIND THIS!!!" posts above I just want to point out that Red Hat representatives have come forward (they did this with the recent GPL thingy) and said that IBM have not directed Red Hat in any way shape or form, they exist as a independent brand under IBM and so far IBM have left them alone.
Maybe those representatives believe so, but IBM owns the company and they certainly will have influence. Spokespeople won't be privy to, say, a meeting with their CEO and an IBM exec leaning on them to increase revenue by any means.
It wouldn't necessarily have to be though, I've certainly been unhappy with Redhat's behaviour since before IBM. It's not even so much that they want a support license for RHEL, what irks me the most is that they lock up their solutions behind paywalls. That'd be like Microsoft requiring a $300 MSDN subscription to access MSKB articles to fix the crap MS supplies.
Years ago, before CentOS, I'd have RHEL on a server. I needed a Redhat distro because of this Ensim virtual hosting appliance system I was using (like Cpanel, only a more virtualized system, everything chroot'ed, and somewhat more fragile). I didn't actually have the license, it's the web host that's "renting" it to me. I could run "up2date" but I had no RHN credentials. I don't know if I could have got a sign in, but that's not the kind of thing I waste my time on. (That's a "thanks for nothing" attitude from me and I'll find my own solution... e.g. ditch their kernel and roll my own). I used to help people with their web servers and stuff too and it made it difficult.
Eventually it could be a lesson for all those "Gnu's not cool anymore" parrots too. Maybe they'll stop praising licenses like BSD and MIT as being "more freedom". Redshart could legally remove probably half of their srcrpms right now and they don't even so much has have to provide a link to the original source, never mind their patchsets and build configuration.
Last edited by Grogan on 9 July 2023 at 4:48 pm UTC
Quoting: ElectricPrismGood for Debian, Arch and others, bad for Fedora. (making people agitated that is)I'm already planning out my switch BACK to Debian, though I may look into some Arch variants
Quoting: omer666I think privacy advocacy may be going a little over the top on this subject. I'm all for it, I use a zero-access email provider, do my searches on Duckduckgo, have a LineageOS smartphone without Google services and so on, and yet I don't mind them collecting technical data. It's much less complete than Steam hardware survey and yet I'd bet every Linux gamer will gladly answer this one because they want to improve the system's visibility for game developers. Here the devs want to improve the system, but nope, no sir, this is bad and all.
Can you name anything that improved leaps and bounds after starting to collect telemetry? Gnome does telemetry but they continuously ignore the obvious will of users to do what they want instead. It's less about needing telemetry and more about following the industry trends of collecting data and IGNORING what users want in favor of what developers and platform owners want. The proponents of this over and over acknowledge they can't make it opt-in because users wont opt-in. They can't force an explicit choice because the choice will be no and they know it. This right here says it all. They should just not do it. They are already ignoring users in favor of what they want, you think they are going to completely flip and suddenly start doing things in the interest of the users? Nonsense.
They also make the arguments that users don't care, also total nonsense. Telemetry has been getting forced on users for years against their will. They are so bombarded it would take unrealistic effort to stop it so they submit, effectively by force. Then you guys turn around and say they don't care. They have never been given a choice, except in Linux and now people are trying to take that choice away as well. If you want to collect it, make people want to give it to you. If you can't do that, don't take it. Don't trick them, take via it attrition (bombarding them until they make a mistake by accident) and dark patterns. Be better, be ethical.
Last edited by m2mg2 on 9 July 2023 at 5:12 pm UTC
"Firefox, Chrome, Brave, Vivaldi, Opera, Edge, Windows, IOS, Android, etc. already are collecting this type of data by default."
This quote is from the opt-in opt-out thread. People want Linux to be just like Windows. We use it because it's not Windows. Please, don't make it Windows. Then those of us that care about what Linux is/was, will have to go to BSD.... and we will. Not that the ones who take it over will care.
Quoting: omer666I think privacy advocacy may be going a little over the top on this subject. I'm all for it, I use a zero-access email provider, do my searches on Duckduckgo, have a LineageOS smartphone without Google services and so on, and yet I don't mind them collecting technical data. It's much less complete than Steam hardware survey and yet I'd bet every Linux gamer will gladly answer this one because they want to improve the system's visibility for game developers. Here the devs want to improve the system, but nope, no sir, this is bad and all.I too use DDG, and I don't have a "smart" phone to begin with, but I admittedly do use Steam to play games that are not available in physical form, or digitally elsewhere, yet I balk every time I have to launch it.
And I do, did, and will reject every invitation to the Steam Survey I am presented with.
I wouldn't bet that there are many others out there that do the same, but you just lost your bet. Awaiting the money... ;)
But seriously, even if something looks like a "sure bet" it's not necessarily true.
Steam already has more than enough data about me than I'd like them to have, and IMO every new iteration of the client makes it even less appealing – the latest brilliant feature is to open a separate window with a prompt to inform me that I'm not signed into their chat system; well guess what, I'm not signed into their chat system for a reason, thank you very much, yet on each and every launch of the Steam client, that window pops up again and needs to be dismissed.
I somehow doubt that having more data would change its direction in the slightest.
And while none of that was specifically about Fedora and its flavour of "telemetry", it all applies just the same, as the comment about the Gnome devs perfectly illustrates. And Fedora the Linux distribution is so much more encompassing than just Gnome the desktop environment.
"Telemetry" certainly is not about aiding the users and improving their experience.
Quoting: m2mg2Can you name anything that improved leaps and bounds after starting to collect telemetry? Gnome does telemetry but they continuously ignore the obvious will of users to do what they want instead.No, they're not. Stop spreading FUD.
Quoting: ValckAnd while none of that was specifically about Fedora and its flavour of "telemetry", it all applies just the same, as the comment about the Gnome devs perfectly illustrates. And Fedora the Linux distribution is so much more encompassing than just Gnome the desktop environment.That's FUD, too. Just stop it.
"Telemetry" certainly is not about aiding the users and improving their experience.
Quoting: m2mg2Well I am not using Linux just because of privacy, but also for technical reasons, so that's a different case altogether.Quoting: omer666I think privacy advocacy may be going a little over the top on this subject. I'm all for it, I use a zero-access email provider, do my searches on Duckduckgo, have a LineageOS smartphone without Google services and so on, and yet I don't mind them collecting technical data. It's much less complete than Steam hardware survey and yet I'd bet every Linux gamer will gladly answer this one because they want to improve the system's visibility for game developers. Here the devs want to improve the system, but nope, no sir, this is bad and all.
Can you name anything that improved leaps and bounds after starting to collect telemetry? Gnome does telemetry but they continuously ignore the obvious will of users to do what they want instead. It's less about needing telemetry and more about following the industry trends of collecting data and IGNORING what users want in favor of what developers and platform owners want. The proponents of this over and over acknowledge they can't make it opt-in because users wont opt-in. They can't force an explicit choice because the choice will be no and they know it. This right here says it all. They should just not do it. They are already ignoring users in favor of what they want, you think they are going to completely flip and suddenly start doing things in the interest of the users? Nonsense.
They also make the arguments that users don't care, also total nonsense. Telemetry has been getting forced on users for years against their will. They are so bombarded it would take unrealistic effort to stop it so they submit, effectively by force. Then you guys turn around and say they don't care. They have never been given a choice, except in Linux and now people are trying to take that choice away as well. If you want to collect it, make people want to give it to you. If you can't do that, don't take it. Don't trick them, take via it attrition (bombarding them until they make a mistake by accident) and dark patterns. Be better, be ethical.
I never heard of GNOME using telemetry, but I have a pretty unpopular opinion about how they've been handling user requests since GNOME 3.0... I am glad they haven't listened
Quoting: ValckI always lose at bets, that's awfulQuoting: omer666I think privacy advocacy may be going a little over the top on this subject. I'm all for it, I use a zero-access email provider, do my searches on Duckduckgo, have a LineageOS smartphone without Google services and so on, and yet I don't mind them collecting technical data. It's much less complete than Steam hardware survey and yet I'd bet every Linux gamer will gladly answer this one because they want to improve the system's visibility for game developers. Here the devs want to improve the system, but nope, no sir, this is bad and all.I too use DDG, and I don't have a "smart" phone to begin with, but I admittedly do use Steam to play games that are not available in physical form, or digitally elsewhere, yet I balk every time I have to launch it.
And I do, did, and will reject every invitation to the Steam Survey I am presented with.
I wouldn't bet that there are many others out there that do the same, but you just lost your bet. Awaiting the money... ;)
But seriously, even if something looks like a "sure bet" it's not necessarily true.
Steam already has more than enough data about me than I'd like them to have, and IMO every new iteration of the client makes it even less appealing – the latest brilliant feature is to open a separate window with a prompt to inform me that I'm not signed into their chat system; well guess what, I'm not signed into their chat system for a reason, thank you very much, yet on each and every launch of the Steam client, that window pops up again and needs to be dismissed.
I somehow doubt that having more data would change its direction in the slightest.
And while none of that was specifically about Fedora and its flavour of "telemetry", it all applies just the same, as the comment about the Gnome devs perfectly illustrates. And Fedora the Linux distribution is so much more encompassing than just Gnome the desktop environment.
"Telemetry" certainly is not about aiding the users and improving their experience.
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