Never Grave from the Palworld developer looks a lot like Hollow Knight

Quoting: M@GOidI can enjoy a modern game that pays homage for ancient games from 20, 30 years ago. You feel nostalgic and stuff. Hollow Knight was released too recently for someone to be "paying homage" too it.

Those ancient games themselves were all copying each other's homework too, though - it's what grows genres.

We used to have the phrase "If you like that, you'll like this too." for a reason, before it became taboo for reasons I've never understood.

Quoting: Viesta2015so i really don't understand all the anger...

It feels to me like some indies are allowed a free pass for "Sticking it to THE MAN!", but others aren't for some reason, even though they're doing exactly what this industry has always done.

Quoting: EagleDelta

Quoting: Nezchan

Quoting: LacSlyer

Quoting: EhvisI don't really see a lot of the Hollow Knight specific art style in this game. This looks more like a traditional cartoony style. And while some of the mechanics look similar to Hollow Knight, the gameplay as a whole looks quite different. I mean, ladders? :) Crownsworn definitely looks closer.

If you can't see some of the screenshots on their store page that look like a blatant rip off of Hollow Knight then you either have no idea how Hollow Knight looks or you didn't actually look at the images. The art style isn't exactly the same, it's a bit more cartoony, but some of the shots make the environment look like they literally copy pasted from HK.

Keep in mind, the developer posted these shots to sell the game. When a handful of those images they posted can raise questions like this it's enough to be suspicious at the very least.

I think this is what people are missing here. This isn't about how the game actually plays. It's not about iteration on an existing set of ideas. It's about marketing, and using "looks a lot like" as a strategy, even though the game isn't like the thing it looks a lot like.

Craftopia didn't iterate on Breath of the Wild. Palworld doesn't really do much with Pokémon mechanics aside from capturing in the same way. And this seems to use none of the innovations Hollow Knight brought to the Metroidvania genre. But boy do they want people who know those games to look at screenshots and go "hey, that looks familiar!"

Which is something they have likely needed in the past. If you read the translated interview on the dev's site, you'll see that nearly every publisher he approached passed on the game because it didn't play it safe with a popular, trendy game format and genre. It doesn't have MTX, isn't a battle royale/FPS/Action RPG, so publishers passed. So, instead, they created their own marketing by using the art style to get ppl interested and in the door, then use the gameplay to try and get them hooked.

Even with the boatloads of money they've earned on Palworld, they are still nowhere near the resources that a AAA studio/publisher has available to spend on Engineers or Marketing (two of the most expensive parts of Tech/Gaming companies)

So...they were actually forced to use, and continue to use, a cynical marketing scheme where they rode the coattails of more popular games and mislead players about what their game was like.

Cool, I guess.

I think the point overall is that this studio is just about copying popular games and releasing them, what now appears to be, really fast. I can’t help but associate them like the developers for mobile apps who asset flip games. Obviously, they are putting more work than that, but that’s how I will classify it and I’ll steer clear from them. There’s more creative stuff out there for me to play with.

The developer certainly looks at other games and says, "how can we make sometime similar but improve it".
I think this is where all the hate comes from even thought their doing nothing wrong.

It's the game fanatical fandom that happens which is the problem, instead we should just be happy getting games that are fun to play provided there isn't direct copy-pasting of code/sound/models being done. (or cloning I guess)

At present its not illegal to make a game that looks/plays similar as others, there is huge quantity of trash on steam/mobile that clone others over and over. We seem to only care when this happens and its actually a good similarity/parody that plays well. (Palworld)

Human society is so funny!


Last edited by TheRiddick on 31 January 2024 at 4:41 am UTC

Quoting: reaplyI think the point overall is that this studio is just about copying popular games and releasing them, what now appears to be, really fast. I can’t help but associate them like the developers for mobile apps who asset flip games. Obviously, they are putting more work than that, but that’s how I will classify it and I’ll steer clear from them. There’s more creative stuff out there for me to play with.

As far as I can tell from what people say who play the games, that's only true in terms of art, while the gameplay is quite distinct. If we think art is the only important thing and gameplay is not, then I guess your position is justified. But it's odd--we don't say this about games with interesting art that are identical to existing games in how they play.

Quoting: reaplyI think the point overall is that this studio is just about copying popular games and releasing them, what now appears to be, really fast. I can’t help but associate them like the developers for mobile apps who asset flip games. Obviously, they are putting more work than that, but that’s how I will classify it and I’ll steer clear from them. There’s more creative stuff out there for me to play with.

This pretty much sums it up for me.

When it came to Palworld, I was looking at it as a long-time Pokémon fan, and there was simply not enough creativity and effort for me to justify getting it. It has about as many issues as Scarlet and Violet had and looks very cash-grabby to me.

The monster designs also kinda painted the whole picture, with some of them being clear derivatives of Pokémon designs, so in a world where Cassette Beasts and Coromon are making more original and interesting monster designs, I see it as a problem.

I'm aware it's meant to be a parody, but I'm not interested in parodies, I'm interested in creative games that actually push the genre forward mechanically and creatively, which Palworld doesn't do.

Meanwhile, this game looks more solid creatively so far. The artstyle doesn't have that same "dreariness" as Hollow Knight does - whether that was an intentional decision or they wanted to replicate it, I'm not sure. The enemy possession mechanic and multiplayer also make it much more interesting.

...But I'm still not interested in Pocket Pair. It's clear that they're a trend chaser and nothing more. How else am I meant to interpret it, when they are the same developers that made a game called AI: Art Impostor?

Quoting: Pengling

Quoting: M@GOidI can enjoy a modern game that pays homage for ancient games from 20, 30 years ago. You feel nostalgic and stuff. Hollow Knight was released too recently for someone to be "paying homage" too it.

Those ancient games themselves were all copying each other's homework too, though - it's what grows genres.

We used to have the phrase "If you like that, you'll like this too." for a reason, before it became taboo for reasons I've never understood.

Quoting: Viesta2015so i really don't understand all the anger...

It feels to me like some indies are allowed a free pass for "Sticking it to THE MAN!", but others aren't for some reason, even though they're doing exactly what this industry has always done.

Pengling, you never cease to amaze me. This is why I have some deep respect for you; you're a genius.

Quoting: jams3223Pengling, you never cease to amaze me. This is why I have some deep respect for you; you're a genius.

Aww, thanks very much - that's very kind of you.

It's true, though - if this logic had been applied in the old days, we would never have moved beyond Pac-Man, because Crazy Otto wouldn't've been allowed, then that would never have been re-worked into Ms. Pac-Man, then we'd never have gotten Lock 'n' Chase or K.C. Munchkin or Bomberman. Super Mario Bros. wouldn't have been ok because Pitfall! existed, and then Sonic The Hedgehog would've been a "Mario clone" so that's not ok either.

Then Data East wouldn't have won Capcom U.S.A. Inc. v. Data East Corp. and fighting-games would never have been allowed to advance beyond Street Fighter II, then from there Doom would never have had its deathmatch mode and Puyo Puyo would never have existed (both of these non-fighting-games had important elements inspired by SFII, but that wouldn't have been allowed either).

And extending out from that we'd never have had Half-Life because that was inspired by Doom and Quake, and without Half-Life hitting the big-time ultimately Valve wouldn't've grown and we wouldn't have the Linux-gaming support that we now have today.

It's not even hyperbole for me to say that - being fine with letting Shovel Knight copy Mega Man's homework (it even employed one of its original composers! Shock! Horror!) but not being ok with Never Grave copying Hollow Knight's homework is a slippery slope.