Fedora Workstation 41 will drop GNOME X.Org session as fallback option

this is wonderful news. I hope more distros follow suit.

After using Wayland for a couple of years, I could never go back to X.

I always wondered. What's in it for the end-user ? (Wayland)

I mean, I'm aware it has a much more modern architecture since Xorg codebase dates back to the 90s, but I heard it still had tons of problems with NVIDIA's proprietary GPU driver.

As a gamer myself, I wonder what could be the consequences of such a bold move.

I always wondered. What's in it for the end-user ? (Wayland)

I mean, I'm aware it has a much more modern architecture since Xorg codebase dates back to the 90s, but I heard it still had tons of problems with NVIDIA's proprietary GPU driver.

As a gamer myself, I wonder what could be the consequences of such a bold move.

I'm also a little worried about my Nvidia GPU in a world with no X11, but from what I've read newer Linux kernels 6.6.7+ and Nvidia driver 550+ fixes a lot of the Wayland issues. Over the next year or two things should only get better.

Then there is the new open source Nvidia Vulkan driver (that also does openGL) which is shaping up great and AFAIK it should work well with Wayland.


Last edited by WYW on 7 Mar 2024 at 5:13 pm UTC

Well, I'm sure there will be some pain points, but it's Fedora . . . going a bit experimental to push things forward is their thing, and we'll probably all benefit in the long run.

I always wondered. What's in it for the end-user ? (Wayland)

I mean, I'm aware it has a much more modern architecture since Xorg codebase dates back to the 90s, but I heard it still had tons of problems with NVIDIA's proprietary GPU driver.

As a gamer myself, I wonder what could be the consequences of such a bold move.

I'm also a little worried about my Nvidia GPU in a world with no X11, but from what I've read newer Linux kernels 6.6.7+ and Nvidia driver 550+ fixes a lot of the Wayland issues. Over the next year or two things should only get better.

Then there is the new open source Nvidia Vulkan driver (that also does openGL) which is shaping up great and AFAIK it should work well with Wayland.

I really think the only counterpart on it is for the ones we have Nvidia. As I already mentioned on another post, to me the last stable driver was 535. After that, everything has been a nightmare on Wayland. There are a lot of people also posting on Nvidia forums. Nvidia devs are all the times saying there's a fix, but 545 and 550 have come with drawbacks, so I don't really see where are the fixes they're always talking about.

I can't stop to think whenever I get the money I'm leaving Nvidia. They're really slowing down Linux in terms of technology. Wayland is really cool, and I feel better using it knowing it's more polished and not predatory as how it's designed.

I always wondered. What's in it for the end-user ? (Wayland)

Support for multiple monitors of varying refresh rates, HDR support, and eliminating round trips between the display server and the compositor because the compositor is the display server are the headline desirable features.

The first two only really came about during the long, long development of Wayland, admittedly, and the primary motivation wasn't about features, but just that everyone that was capable of doing anything with Xorg no longer wanted to do anything with Xorg.

I think the only remaining pain point for me personally with Gnome and Wayland is the lack of PTT in Discord. It's the only thing I have to regularly fall back to an X session for - I know there are a few hacky workarounds but since most if not all of the servers I am in enforce PTT, just having a mic un/muted won't work for me. I won't even lie, being able to work around that is one reason I keep looking at running KDE at least for a while.

I always wondered. What's in it for the end-user ? (Wayland)

I mean, I'm aware it has a much more modern architecture since Xorg codebase dates back to the 90s, but I heard it still had tons of problems with NVIDIA's proprietary GPU driver.

As a gamer myself, I wonder what could be the consequences of such a bold move.

I'm also a little worried about my Nvidia GPU in a world with no X11, but from what I've read newer Linux kernels 6.6.7+ and Nvidia driver 550+ fixes a lot of the Wayland issues. Over the next year or two things should only get better.

Then there is the new open source Nvidia Vulkan driver (that also does openGL) which is shaping up great and AFAIK it should work well with Wayland.

This is totally speculation, but I believe Valve is preparing a general release of SteamOS, one that can run on other handhelds, desktops and living room boxes. In order to do that, they need a working Nvidia driver. I would guess they're more interested in getting the open source driver working well with games than having to deal with Nvidia's proprietary one, which they wouldn't be able to ship with their OS. Given that, Wayland support should be in line with the open source AMD drivers once it's ready.

If what I'm saying turns out to be true, the only question is: when will it be ready?

I always wondered. What's in it for the end-user ? (Wayland)

I mean, I'm aware it has a much more modern architecture since Xorg codebase dates back to the 90s, but I heard it still had tons of problems with NVIDIA's proprietary GPU driver.

As a gamer myself, I wonder what could be the consequences of such a bold move.

I'm also a little worried about my Nvidia GPU in a world with no X11, but from what I've read newer Linux kernels 6.6.7+ and Nvidia driver 550+ fixes a lot of the Wayland issues. Over the next year or two things should only get better.

Then there is the new open source Nvidia Vulkan driver (that also does openGL) which is shaping up great and AFAIK it should work well with Wayland.

This is totally speculation, but I believe Valve is preparing a general release of SteamOS, one that can run on other handhelds, desktops and living room boxes. In order to do that, they need a working Nvidia driver. I would guess they're more interested in getting the open source driver working well with games than having to deal with Nvidia's proprietary one, which they wouldn't be able to ship with their OS. Given that, Wayland support should be in line with the open source AMD drivers once it's ready.

If what I'm saying turns out to be true, the only question is: when will it be ready?

That's a interesting postulate,

I'm curious why do you think this would be strategically in Valve's interest? How would they stand to benefit? And Are there any observable behaviors or things in the news that align with this hypothesis?

Genuinely curious, no pressure or need to even answer at all, I just found the concept intriguing.

I always wondered. What's in it for the end-user ? (Wayland)

Support for multiple monitors of varying refresh rates, HDR support, and eliminating round trips between the display server and the compositor because the compositor is the display server are the headline desirable features.

The first two only really came about during the long, long development of Wayland, admittedly, and the primary motivation wasn't about features, but just that everyone that was capable of doing anything with Xorg no longer wanted to do anything with Xorg.

Also stuff like streamable v4l devices (hello PipeWire :))

Yes, we totally want this!

I'm using an NVIDIA GPU and a Wacom tablet instead of a mouse. Both are currently not really usable on Gnome Wayland. That said, I still very welcome this switch to reduce landscape and have manpower available for getting Wayland into shape.

I'm not worried of NVIDIA, the explicit sync stuff is shaping up nicely and I guess by the end of year we have a perfect Wayland experience on NVIDIA. There is also NVK coming with an astonishing speed. The Wacom support on Gnome Wayland is getting better too, but there are still some hurdles. Fortunately there is also `labwc` which works perfectly with regard to tablet support.


Last edited by jens on 8 Mar 2024 at 7:27 am UTC

My litmus test when it comes to wayland is the visibility of the Steam Controller cursor, since I really need it. I test wayland quite often, but so far this is still a very old (years) issue waiting for a fix. There are several workarounds, like using gamescope or extest but nothing "official". As for the causes, there is a discussion on Gitlab with interesting arguments from developers. A rare occasion to see plagman rather annoyed.
https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/xorg/xserver/-/merge_requests/431

Thanks for the link, interesting use case and underlines how difficult the transition to Wayland is when looking into the details. Reading that discussion, I understand both arguments.

I'm using an NVIDIA GPU and a Wacom tablet instead of a mouse. Both are currently not really usable on Gnome Wayland. That said, I still very welcome this switch to reduce landscape and have manpower available for getting Wayland into shape.

I'm not worried of NVIDIA, the explicit sync stuff is shaping up nicely and I guess by the end of year we have a perfect Wayland experience on NVIDIA. There is also NVK coming with an astonishing speed. The Wacom support on Gnome Wayland is getting better too, but there are still some hurdles. Fortunately there is also `labwc` which works perfectly with regard to tablet support.

My experience is that Krita is terrible on GNOME, Wayland or X11, with a NVIDIA GPU. My Wacom tablet works properly on KDE Wayland and only KDE Wayland.

Of course, Krita's toolbar flickers black every 5 seconds so it's a little distracting.

Have I mentioned how tired I am of NVIDIA's proprietary drivers before?

My experience is that Krita is terrible on GNOME, Wayland or X11, with a NVIDIA GPU. My Wacom tablet works properly on KDE Wayland and only KDE Wayland.

Of course, Krita's toolbar flickers black every 5 seconds so it's a little distracting.

Have I mentioned how tired I am of NVIDIA's proprietary drivers before?

Cool to hear that the KDE folks got their tablet support right. I'm using my Wacom tablet solemnly as a mouse replacement, not for actual drawing. So slightly different use case I guess. Lots of Wacom related PR's got merged for the upcoming Gnome version, so I have hopes that the normal interaction works better, but things like https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/mutter/-/issues/2983 are still open and probably no that easy to address :(

Yeah, the flickering might be related to the implicit/explicit sync issues. I sincerely hope that https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/wayland/wayland-protocols/-/merge_requests/90 gets merged soon and all related PR's land in compositors, xwayland etc. From my understanding, that should solve all flickering (asuming what you are seeing is related to that). Side note, reading through the discussion of that PR, NVIDIA engineers are pushing for this and contributed heavily, so it is not NVIDIA that is holding back.

I'm curious why do you think this would be strategically in Valve's interest? How would they stand to benefit? And Are there any observable behaviors or things in the news that align with this hypothesis?

Well, NVIDIA makes up most of the PC market. Most people switching to SteamOS won't know to grab an AMD graphics card just for Linux. They'll either stick to Windows or complain to Valve that their PC doesn't work right even though Valve has no control over it. Waiting for NVK to mature is the right move because it means that they can hire developers to work on issues that they find without any red tape. Actually, Valve Devs are already helping out with NVK.

So basically games that are using Proton/WINE won't work at all with Fedora 41?

So basically games that are using Proton/WINE won't work at all with Fedora 41?

No. Proton/Wine works just fine, also currently, using XWayland on a Wayland desktop session.

So basically games that are using Proton/WINE won't work at all with Fedora 41?

No. Proton/Wine works just fine, also currently, using XWayland on a Wayland desktop session.

Thanks, I think I heard recently (from the TLE youtube guy) that it was not possible, maybe I misunderstood it.