Fedora Workstation 41 will drop GNOME X.Org session as fallback option

Quoting: STiATHope we can use NVK by then... since I have little hope that the proprietary nvidia wayland support will get better, to be true, it got worse from 535 to 545 :D. Those flickering issue in certain applications is annoying.

Not a promise but I believe that NVK is no longer experimental and has been said by the developer to be mature by the end of the year.

Quoting: Tuxee

Quoting: LibreTEKDarktable on Wayland is fine, but using it with an AMD gpu is horrible because of the lack of OpenCL support, and using an NVIDIA gpu on Wayland is... yep. And yes, too quickly, if it cant be a drop in replacement for X11 then it's not ready and distros are rushing it.

There is OpenCL support with AMD gpus. OpenCL support can be installed standalone from the AMD repos along the Mesa drivers.

https://askubuntu.com/questions/1406137/how-enable-opencl-on-amd-gpu-ubuntu-22-04-lts

Yea except its a pain and it doesn't work on Davinci Resolve.

For a few years, we were able to welcome more and more people switching from windows. Now we are finally back to telling people "Yeah, your still perfectly capable hardware is not supported, you should buy other hardware"
I personally think this is utterly stupid. I recognize wayland is the future, but compatibility is still favoring Xorg, especially for Nvidia users (~70%) with multi-screen setups. I can't believe people here are celebrating this cutting of workarounds.


Last edited by const on 8 March 2024 at 11:05 pm UTC

Quoting: constFor a few years, we were able to welcome more and more people switching from windows. Now we are finally back to telling people "Yeah, your still perfectly capable hardware is not supported, you should buy other hardware"
I personally think this is utterly stupid. I recognize wayland is the future, but compatibility is still favoring Xorg, especially for Nvidia users (~70%) with multi-screen setups. I can't believe people here are celebrating this cutting of workarounds.

Despite my complaints about Wayland compositors, I think it has actually been an overall better experience. Games play smoother and it's generally smoother. Krita and Steam have the worst flickering in the world, but Bitwarden and Freetube's flickering I can live with.

Multi-monitor setup with my Wacom tablet flat-out doesn't work properly on Xorg. It will only work properly on KDE Wayland. Proper color accuracy is desirable, and while Xorg kind of implements it, the Wayland protocol looks to be close to completion and doing a much better job with all the input from all these important stakeholders.

Once explicit sync is implemented (it looks very close), I think that's the last thing Wayland needs for it to be a consistently good experience for me. It's already a consistently better experience than Xorg even with the flickering. Neither has been problem-free.

Quoting: pleasereadthemanual

Quoting: constFor a few years, we were able to welcome more and more people switching from windows. Now we are finally back to telling people "Yeah, your still perfectly capable hardware is not supported, you should buy other hardware"
I personally think this is utterly stupid. I recognize wayland is the future, but compatibility is still favoring Xorg, especially for Nvidia users (~70%) with multi-screen setups. I can't believe people here are celebrating this cutting of workarounds.

Despite my complaints about Wayland compositors, I think it has actually been an overall better experience. Games play smoother and it's generally smoother. Krita and Steam have the worst flickering in the world, but Bitwarden and Freetube's flickering I can live with.

Multi-monitor setup with my Wacom tablet flat-out doesn't work properly on Xorg. It will only work properly on KDE Wayland. Proper color accuracy is desirable, and while Xorg kind of implements it, the Wayland protocol looks to be close to completion and doing a much better job with all the input from all these important stakeholders.

Once explicit sync is implemented (it looks very close), I think that's the last thing Wayland needs for it to be a consistently good experience for me. It's already a consistently better experience than Xorg even with the flickering. Neither has been problem-free.

I don't argue that some people have a better experience with Wayland. That's a given. But just because it works for you it doesn't mean it works for everyone. Explicit sync may be close, but if that solves issues for many people, shouldn't distros wait for it before they drop Xorg sessions as a fallback?
I have a wacom tablet on my 3 screen setup, btw. It just works on Xorg.
I tried wayland nearly every year for a while. Have gotten a session to run once, it was misbehaving in every way I can imagine. Mouse offset, crazy colors, graphic elements moving randomly added to constant flickering seemed like the experience those warning banners in movies and videogames warn you of. That's the one time I got it to run at all. Every other time, selecting the wayland session would drop me back to the login manager. My 980TI might be old, but it's still pretty fine for a lot of games and I fear that entire generation can have comparable issues. So yeah, make it the default, pressure Nvidia to fix their driver. But until we are sure everyone has an equally good or better time with wayland, distros should keep the fallback.

Edit: ok, I'm now on wayland. Had to set a kernel option for it to work. It's not a nightmare for now, it actually seems pretty neat and a lot of KDE bugs that were bugging me lately have gone. That's great. Still, the fact I had to set a kernel option is kind of a sign this is not ready for prime time.


Last edited by const on 9 March 2024 at 10:05 am UTC

Quoting: constHad to set a kernel option for it to work.

Which option did you set?

Quoting: poiuz

Quoting: constHad to set a kernel option for it to work.

Which option did you set?

nvidia_drm.modeset=1

Quoting: ElectricPrismThat's a interesting postulate,

I'm curious why do you think this would be strategically in Valve's interest? How would they stand to benefit? And Are there any observable behaviors or things in the news that align with this hypothesis?

Genuinely curious, no pressure or need to even answer at all, I just found the concept intriguing.

I wish I could say I had some insider information, but sadly, no. It truly was just speculation. I'm just going off the little public information we have. Valve did say they intend to release SteamOS to the public eventually. People have been wondering what they're waiting for. I'm just speculating that they're waiting for certain Linux features to be ready for all systems. The biggest hurdle right now would be Nvidia proprietary drivers. That would explain why now, after all this time, Nvidia has suddenly shown interest in supporting open source drivers. Again, total speculation.

There's also the whole steam machine thing. Valve clearly did want Steam in the living room, but Steam Machines failed because of the general lack of support for games back then. They've largely eliminated that issue, and the only other possible hurdle, as I said, would be out-of-the-box Nvidia driver support since most PC gamers currently use Nvidia.

Quoting: const

Quoting: pleasereadthemanual

Quoting: constFor a few years, we were able to welcome more and more people switching from windows. Now we are finally back to telling people "Yeah, your still perfectly capable hardware is not supported, you should buy other hardware"
I personally think this is utterly stupid. I recognize wayland is the future, but compatibility is still favoring Xorg, especially for Nvidia users (~70%) with multi-screen setups. I can't believe people here are celebrating this cutting of workarounds.

Despite my complaints about Wayland compositors, I think it has actually been an overall better experience. Games play smoother and it's generally smoother. Krita and Steam have the worst flickering in the world, but Bitwarden and Freetube's flickering I can live with.

Multi-monitor setup with my Wacom tablet flat-out doesn't work properly on Xorg. It will only work properly on KDE Wayland. Proper color accuracy is desirable, and while Xorg kind of implements it, the Wayland protocol looks to be close to completion and doing a much better job with all the input from all these important stakeholders.

Once explicit sync is implemented (it looks very close), I think that's the last thing Wayland needs for it to be a consistently good experience for me. It's already a consistently better experience than Xorg even with the flickering. Neither has been problem-free.

I don't argue that some people have a better experience with Wayland. That's a given. But just because it works for you it doesn't mean it works for everyone. Explicit sync may be close, but if that solves issues for many people, shouldn't distros wait for it before they drop Xorg sessions as a fallback?
I have a wacom tablet on my 3 screen setup, btw. It just works on Xorg.
I tried wayland nearly every year for a while. Have gotten a session to run once, it was misbehaving in every way I can imagine. Mouse offset, crazy colors, graphic elements moving randomly added to constant flickering seemed like the experience those warning banners in movies and videogames warn you of. That's the one time I got it to run at all. Every other time, selecting the wayland session would drop me back to the login manager. My 980TI might be old, but it's still pretty fine for a lot of games and I fear that entire generation can have comparable issues. So yeah, make it the default, pressure Nvidia to fix their driver. But until we are sure everyone has an equally good or better time with wayland, distros should keep the fallback.

Edit: ok, I'm now on wayland. Had to set a kernel option for it to work. It's not a nightmare for now, it actually seems pretty neat and a lot of KDE bugs that were bugging me lately have gone. That's great. Still, the fact I had to set a kernel option is kind of a sign this is not ready for prime time.

Linux Mint is where you want to be if you want the best experience. They aren't going to transition to Wayland until it's deemed well and truly ready.

Fedora is not, and has never been about the best experience. It's about embracing the new as quickly as possible. I don't know what Ubuntu's doing but I can't imagine they're going to take the Xorg option away any time in the next 5 years.

Yes, it was hard for me to enable it on Arch. Though I think you've touched upon the reason Plasma has set it as the default: they've stopped fixing bugs for Xorg and are only focusing on Wayland, so it's probably going to be a better experience for more people. And bugs might be easier to fix, too.

I hope that Noveau + Zink + NVK is set as the default drivers for NVIDIA sometime soon and we won't need to worry about those particular issues sometime in the near future.

I do think you're right that it's an awful time to be a newcomer, because you're stuck with two not-very-great options right now. There's cool and fundamental stuff on Wayland you won't see on Xorg, but there are definite issues with Wayland too. I hope that the pain now will result in a great experience in 2025, which is just around the time some people might be considering their options.

And out of genuine curiosity, what is missing on Wayland? I wanted to compile a list so I can keep tabs on the issues, but so far I've got:

* Explicit Sync to fix flickering (recently got 3 ACKs and is nearly ready to merge, awaiting implementations in compositors + drivers)
* Color Management Protocol (seems like some early implementations have recently been done and Plasma 6 has limited HDR support)
* Better IME protocol, maybe? It works for me on GNOME and KDE, but the implementation was a little broken on wlroots

Quoting: melkemindThat would explain why now, after all this time, Nvidia has suddenly shown interest in supporting open source drivers.

The open source kernel modules were more a result of discussions with Red Hat: https://blogs.gnome.org/uraeus/2022/05/11/why-is-the-open-source-driver-release-from-nvidia-so-important-for-linux/

QuoteAnd as the only linux vendor with a significant engineering footprint in GPUs we have been working closely with NVIDIA. People like Kevin Martin, the manager for our GPU technologies team, Ben Skeggs the maintainer of Nouveau and Dave Airlie, the upstream kernel maintainer for the graphics subsystem, Nouveau contributor Karol Herbst and our accelerator lead Tom Rix have all taken part in meetings, code reviews and discussions with NVIDIA.