Game over for Roblox on Linux / Steam Deck as it's now blocked

Quoting: CatKiller

Quoting: EhvisWhy would that be? I'm not a mac person, but I highly doubt that Apple would make it easy for software to run something at elevated permissions. So maybe the mac built is running with the same restricted "anti-cheat" as they did to support wine. If that is the case, some of these cheaters may just move over to try their luck on a mac. Maybe not as many since that would require a fairly significant investment.

The thing to remember is that "anti-cheat" isn't really anti-cheat at all; it's anti-tamper. They want to know that the software and environment that it's running in hasn't been modified to do anything unexpected. On Windows, you've got a fairly standardised environment, but the broad range of hardware means that you need the ability to load, for example, hardware drivers... so people can load a "driver" that's actually modifying the running environment of user software. So the software developers put their anti-tamper software at the kernel level to be able to check on all the drivers as well as the user software. Macs have a hugely reduced breadth of hardware, so drivers can just come from Apple, and there's a built-in attestation mechanism to say that software hasn't been tampered with. They just use that. On Linux, every OS install is a special snowflake, so you don't even have a baseline standard environment to look for deviations from.

Well, these days they could just say "For anticheat reasons, we allow only the Steam Runtime Environment--any Linux that doesn't use that is out."

Quoting: Purple Library GuyThis is a bad thing. Certainly any idea I might have had of getting my grandkids onto Linux is now gone.

We should all be playing Bomberman instead, anyway.

Quoting: Purple Library GuyWell, these days they could just say "For anticheat reasons, we allow only the Steam Runtime Environment--any Linux that doesn't use that is out."

Oh yes, they definitely could do it if they really wanted. We have all sorts of containerisation solutions that are used for srs bsns that would probably be a good starting point. But... we have 2% of, like, 20% of the gaming market, and the srs bsns containers are predominately geared up to put iron-grip control in the hands of the system administrator rather than some third-party game publisher.

They could also implement actual anti-cheat where they control the playing field and players are only able to take actions in accordance with the rules. It doesn't matter at all what state the client is in then. But every decision made server-side introduces latency, and they would have to pay for running everything rather than offloading a lot of it onto their players. They don't like either of those things, either.


Last edited by CatKiller on 1 March 2024 at 6:43 pm UTC

Cheaters will still find a way. As with any type of blanket restrictions, it only ends up being the honest, paying customers who get punished. The actual cheaters, pirates, etc. will always still find a way to do what they do.

Quoting: PenglingHey, Liam, I have a question, since I don't recall it being addressed in any of the recent articles about this, though it did come up in one a while back: Does this mean they're now blocking their game-creation suite on Linux as well, or are they happy to leverage child-labour for that whilst not letting them actually play what they create on Linux? They weren't blocking the creation tools before.

AFAIK the creation side does not have the anti-cheat, so it should work, but naturally it has no support at all.

Quoting: Liam DaweAFAIK the creation side does not have the anti-cheat, so it should work, but naturally it has no support at all.

That's what I expected! Thanks - I find that most interesting!

When Roblox first blocked Wine, people started playing it via Waydroid. Might be worth a shot now.

However, this does absolutely nothing, not a damn thing, to stop cheating. The idea that it does is completely asinine.
Most cheaters use Windows and software specifically designed for Windows. Disabling Linux support isn't going to magically stop them.


Last edited by pilk on 1 March 2024 at 7:29 pm UTC

Quoting: pilkMost cheaters use Windows and software specifically designed for Windows. Disabling Linux support isn't going to magically stop them.

Tech-savvy types educating kids about the risks posed by Roblox is probably more of a threat to their bottom-line than the infinitesimal number of cheaters using and/or allegedly enabled by Wine.

So there will be none cheaters now? (joke)
I think the cheaters reason is an excuse.
Or the problem is they can not collect informations they want on our Linux system when using Wine?


Last edited by legluondunet on 1 March 2024 at 7:48 pm UTC

Quoting: Purple Library GuyAh, yeah, they did say that. Um, is that actually a thing? Does Wine itself help you do that? In a way that blocking just running the software under Wine will stop? I have no idea, so I'm hoping someone knows.
[…]
But presumably anyone using Wine as a tool for cheating will not be deterred by this issue and will alter the open source Wine software in whatever way they need to get it to work again, and distribute the altered version to the cheater community. Sooo, if Wine is actually used by cheaters to analyze the Roblox software, blocking Wine will probably stop legitimate use but not the cheaters. Um, congratulations?
[…]

That's a lot of speculation about something you have no idea about.

Quoting: pilkHowever, this does absolutely nothing, not a damn thing, to stop cheating. The idea that it does is completely asinine.
Most cheaters use Windows and software specifically designed for Windows. Disabling Linux support isn't going to magically stop them.

Even Wine in it's default configuration allows a lot insight into closed source code:

QuoteNever use +relay or +snoop with native DLLs! This will show you the implementation of those DLLs, which means that any code you write to implement them violates our clean room reverse-engineering rules.
https://wiki.winehq.org/Debug_Channels

QuoteDon't
- Don't use +relay with native components. In general, try to avoid debugging with native components, as that leaks information about what function calls those components make.
https://wiki.winehq.org/Clean_Room_Guidelines

I would imagine using an open source implementation of Windows APIs could have a lot of advantages to disassembly or using a Windows debugger.

Another possibility could be to fake the Wine environment under Windows if the anti-cheat is weaker due to missing APIs.

The paranoia of the GamingOnLinux community is really baffling. Why would they care anyone using Wine unless they have strong indication it's getting abused. I think you underestimate how big the cheating market really is.

Quoting: poiuzThat's a lot of speculation about something you have no idea about.

How rude.

Quoting: poiuzI would imagine

So, you don't know either, eh?

Quoting: poiuzThe paranoia of the GamingOnLinux community is really baffling.

It's not baffling at all. The fact is that corporate statements about why they are discontinuing either Linux or Wine/Proton support have often turned out to be simply factually false (as have corporate statements about, well, pretty much everything). Linux gamers' suspicions about the truthfulness of such corporate statements may often be mistaken, but they're certainly not unwarranted. Once bitten, and all that.

One might think that they don't have reasons to bother lying about it, but the track record suggests that they do anyway.


Last edited by Purple Library Guy on 1 March 2024 at 8:26 pm UTC

Quoting: BlackBloodRumI've always found this "Wine causes cheating" to be a bit of an excuse. The majority of cheat software is made specifically for Windows and in-turn windows games. They make these claims, but never back it up with anything other than saying "we just know".

It really feels like a false reason. I mean, don't you find it ironic devs will turn around and say "We won't provide a Linux build because the Linux market is too small!" followed by "We are blocking Linux because there are too many people on Linux cheating!". Well, make up your mind because both sets of the OS's cheaters are a small subset of that OS's users.

It's pretty funny when you think about it yeah

Quoting: Purple Library GuyHow rude.

Sorry, how so? To quote you again:

Quoting: Purple Library Guy[…] I have no idea, so I'm hoping someone knows. [a lot of speculating why it doesn't work]

Quoting: Purple Library GuySo, you don't know either, eh?

Of course not, I never claimed such a thing. I'm not a Roblox developer or Roblox cheat developer. But I know some capabilities of Wine & I know (& provided sources) of what Wine developers disallow because it provides a lot more insight than what would be legal for a clean implementation. Obviously this could be misused.

Quoting: Purple Library GuyIt's not baffling at all. The fact is that corporate statements about why they are discontinuing either Linux or Wine/Proton support have often turned out to be simply factually false (as have corporate statements about, well, pretty much everything).

What are they lying about? Isn't it a fact that the kernel APIs are not & will not be implemented by Wine?

Quoting: Purple Library GuyLinux gamers' suspicions about the truthfulness of such corporate statements may often be mistaken, but they're certainly not unwarranted.

You just assume that Wine gets blocked for the sake of blocking. You don't have any insights into the development & just believe that they want to harm Linux gaming. Again: Isn't it factual, that the kernel APIs are not & will not be implemented by Wine?

My ten-year-old son just summed up this article for me;

"Well, now Roblox has gone and made themselves shit"

His PC's running Debian 12, and Roblox is his favourite game. He plays it just about daily with his classmates. Now he's stuck with playing it on his phone. He asked me today if there's a way to trick Roblox into thinking it's running on Windows, but it's actually running on Linux, and I had to explain to him that that's basically what he's been doing for the last two years.

Quoting: KithopSimple solution to any of these that I (mostly) try to stick to:

Don't buy/play or support multiplayer games that don't support you hosting your own dedicated server, on hardware you control (none of this forced 'rent a server from our partners' BS either), using configs and settings you control, including the ability to opt out of and disable whatever anti-cheat they support.

Something like Minecraft Java? Amazing - totally the kind of thing an interested person can set up a private server for, mod and customize to your heart's content, invite friends and family onto and be able to admin (cheat) to fix when little Timmy's house gets blown up for the 5th time.

Any kind of 'live service' game? Not so much.

Now even I admit this can't be a 100% hard and fast rule - this means no MMOs, nothing ranked or hyper competitive, and not even the likes of casual things like VRChat (which *has* anti-cheat that works on Proton and they explicitly court Steam Deck support on, but that could change at any moment!), so you can be flexible if you so choose, but this is a general concept I try to stick to.

Kind of how hearing a cool game everyone talks about is some console exclusive, for a console I don't have nor have any other use for? That's nice, but I'll pass...

That's kind of the direction I've been moving unconsiously too. I even ditched steam and cs:go last summer and went all in on gog. Although i have a lot less time for playing lately as well.

We can say now they killed wine in Roblox.


Last edited by dvd on 1 March 2024 at 9:20 pm UTC

From what i've heard about Roblox, i'd have never guessed that they have a problem with giving Wine to kids.

Quoting: poiuz

Quoting: Purple Library GuyHow rude.

Sorry, how so?

Gosh, read what you said, and think about it.

Quoting: Purple Library GuyIt's not baffling at all. The fact is that corporate statements about why they are discontinuing either Linux or Wine/Proton support have often turned out to be simply factually false (as have corporate statements about, well, pretty much everything).

Quoting: poiuzWhat are they lying about?

Now read what I said. Next time, ideally before you comment on it.
I didn't say the Roblox people were lying. I made a general point (the "paranoia" is often warranted) in response to your general comment that you didn't understand the paranoia. I said the overall history of corporations stating their reasons for discontinuing Linux support involves many instances of them lying about it. This is the case--very often corporate pronouncements on this are known to be false--either clearly weren't true because they then changed their story, sometimes multiple times, or were fundamentally at odds with known reality, or stuff surfaced that showed them not to be true. Others are dubious and have not been given the benefit of the doubt because they came from people who are known to lie a lot. The track record over the years adds up, and of course the memorable ones, well, are remembered more. So it shouldn't be baffling when people, confronted with a corporate statement of this sort, suspect that it may be part of this track record.

Whether it is in this case or not, I do not know. But it's not unreasonable for people to entertain the possibility. Now, if you think that we should in each case extend the benefit of the doubt and assume the truth is being told because people shouldn't be mean to corporations and their PR flacks, that would be a stance that could be argued. But if you genuinely find the "paranoia" "baffling", that is just because you are unaware of or have not thought about the history up until now that has led to it.

As to why corporations lie about something like this, when you wouldn't figure they should even care what we think if we're too few to bother taking our money . . . well, there are various reasons. In some cases the people giving the answer simply didn't know it and made something up. But I think the most common reason has to do with corporate branding. For any large corporation, they put a good deal of effort into making sure that none of their consumer-facing messaging makes them sound like they're interested in money (while all of their investor-facing messaging does), even though of course that is what they are mainly interested in. And whatever the details, the general answer to the question of why any company discontinues Linux support is "we think doing this will make us more, and/or cost us less, money." Which means that it doesn't match the messaging they want for their corporate brand, which is supposed to pretend that isn't what motivates them at all--so, they have to say something else. It's not that they care what we think in specific, it's about keeping all the messages pointed vaguely in the direction of consumer-dom consistent.


Last edited by Purple Library Guy on 1 March 2024 at 11:22 pm UTC

Quoting: Purple Library GuyGosh, read what you said, and think about it.

It doesn't change how many times I read it. Do you think it's rude to call you out on your false statements about something you (admitted) have no knowledge about?

Quoting: Purple Library GuyNow read what I said. Next time, ideally before you comment on it.

I did & your comment just confirms what I was saying. You're really a funny person, making the whole argument for me.

Quoting: Purple Library GuyWhether it is in this case or not, I do not know. But it's not unreasonable for people to entertain the possibility. Now, if you think that we should in each case extend the benefit of the doubt and assume the truth is being told because people shouldn't be mean to corporations and their PR flacks, that would be a stance that could be argued. But if you genuinely find the "paranoia" "baffling", that is just because you are unaware of or have not thought about the history up until now that has led to it.

No, I'm saying to apply common sense. You admitted yourself that you have no idea about the allegations the Roblox developers were making about Wine. But still, you spin your whole conspiracy for the fun of it. Just base your arguments on facts then they make more sense.

It's a fact that what the developers are saying about Wine is possible (sources provided in my first post). It's a fact that Wine does not implement the required APIs to run any kernel drivers (no source, but it's well known & mentioned in multiple anti-cheat related news here). It's a fact that the developers even helped in the past to get the game running with Wine ( Roblox support is coming back to Wine on Linux ).

So yes, I think it's very unreasonable to think it has anything to do but the incompatibility of their anti-cheat & Wine. All your allegations are just based on paranoia that everyone wants to harm Linux. But there are valid reasons to drop Wine support.

That their game-creation suite still works even reinforces the argument. There's no inherent incompatibility. It's just the anti-cheat which breaks everything. It's sad but it won't be the last time this is happening.


Last edited by poiuz on 3 March 2024 at 8:50 am UTC

What a corporate white knight...

Roblox doesn't even run on Windows 11 on some machines because of Core Isolation and updates.