GitLab takes down Nintendo Switch emulator suyu due to the DMCA

Quoting: LoftyEmulation is meant for game preservation and nostalgia.

Emulation is meant for emulation. Please don't fall into the trap that so many do, pigeonholing emulation (or anything else) by saying "it's just for this" and that anything that falls outside that specific use is somehow wrong. People want to play games. Many people want to play games in the best possible situation, be that comfort, visual quality, features, etc.... The Nintendo Switch is not the best platform to play games.

And personally, I believe that people should have the right to use a piece of software any way they choose. DRM, platform exclusives, attacking emulation, I see all this as dismissing and undermining the fundamental right to your own property. If I want to buy a Tesla battery pack, a Nissan Leaf drivetrain, and shove them both into a completely different vehicle, that's my prerogative. Digital property should be no different.

Quoting: chuzzle44

Quoting: LoftyEmulation is meant for game preservation and nostalgia.

Emulation is meant for emulation. Please don't fall into the trap that so many do, pigeonholing emulation (or anything else) by saying "it's just for this" and that anything that falls outside that specific use is somehow wrong. People want to play games. Many people want to play games in the best possible situation, be that comfort, visual quality, features, etc.... The Nintendo Switch is not the best platform to play games.

And personally, I believe that people should have the right to use a piece of software any way they choose. DRM, platform exclusives, attacking emulation, I see all this as dismissing and undermining the fundamental right to your own property. If I want to buy a Tesla battery pack, a Nissan Leaf drivetrain, and shove them both into a completely different vehicle, that's my prerogative. Digital property should be no different.

Don't agree things have to go to that extreme. I know emulation is for emulating of course, it goes without saying but in general emulation has been the preservation and re-living of old memories.
With regards to game DRM it's bad especially when it reduces the quality of the experience ( or stops it working on Linux ) but here we are talking about playing games that are readily available on a modern device that is within it's lifecycle that work as intended on the platform they are designed for, meaning In terms of running games at a better quality if it's a modern release it's almost always most likely on PC anyway. In many ways the cross platform revolution already happened.


That said, i think a creator has the right to stipulate where they sell their wares and how. That too is a fundamental right, although i could see how some people might disagree with that, it is what it is.

Corrected my original post, as you made a fair point


Last edited by Lofty on 22 March 2024 at 12:59 am UTC

Quoting: Lofty

Quoting: chuzzle44

Quoting: LoftyEmulation is meant for game preservation and nostalgia.

Emulation is meant for emulation. Please don't fall into the trap that so many do, pigeonholing emulation (or anything else) by saying "it's just for this" and that anything that falls outside that specific use is somehow wrong. People want to play games. Many people want to play games in the best possible situation, be that comfort, visual quality, features, etc.... The Nintendo Switch is not the best platform to play games.

And personally, I believe that people should have the right to use a piece of software any way they choose. DRM, platform exclusives, attacking emulation, I see all this as dismissing and undermining the fundamental right to your own property. If I want to buy a Tesla battery pack, a Nissan Leaf drivetrain, and shove them both into a completely different vehicle, that's my prerogative. Digital property should be no different.

Don't agree things have to go to that extreme. I know emulation is for emulating of course, it goes without saying but in general emulation has been the preservation and re-living of old memories.
With regards to game DRM it's bad especially when it reduces the quality of the experience ( or stops it working on Linux ) but here we are talking about playing games that are readily available on a modern device that is within it's lifecycle that work as intended on the platform they are designed for, meaning In terms of running games at a better quality if it's a modern release it's almost always most likely on PC anyway. In many ways the cross platform revolution already happened.


That said, i think a creator has the right to stipulate where they sell their wares and how. That too is a fundamental right, although i could see how some people might disagree with that, it is what it is.

I don't think it actually matters what the motivation of people is to emulate games. As long as they bought the software they should have every right to use it as they like. If people use it for piracy then well you can also use a knife for multiple purposes. Note that I am not disagreeing with your last statement, but I don't see any impact an emulator has on the how and where creators choose to sell. To be blunt, this reads a bit like an apology for Nintendo's handling of the situation, which isn't the first rodeo where Nintendo has shown its anti-consumer stance.

Quoting: Mordrag

Quoting: Lofty

Quoting: chuzzle44

Quoting: LoftyEmulation is meant for game preservation and nostalgia.

Emulation is meant for emulation. Please don't fall into the trap that so many do, pigeonholing emulation (or anything else) by saying "it's just for this" and that anything that falls outside that specific use is somehow wrong. People want to play games. Many people want to play games in the best possible situation, be that comfort, visual quality, features, etc.... The Nintendo Switch is not the best platform to play games.

And personally, I believe that people should have the right to use a piece of software any way they choose. DRM, platform exclusives, attacking emulation, I see all this as dismissing and undermining the fundamental right to your own property. If I want to buy a Tesla battery pack, a Nissan Leaf drivetrain, and shove them both into a completely different vehicle, that's my prerogative. Digital property should be no different.

Don't agree things have to go to that extreme. I know emulation is for emulating of course, it goes without saying but in general emulation has been the preservation and re-living of old memories.
With regards to game DRM it's bad especially when it reduces the quality of the experience ( or stops it working on Linux ) but here we are talking about playing games that are readily available on a modern device that is within it's lifecycle that work as intended on the platform they are designed for, meaning In terms of running games at a better quality if it's a modern release it's almost always most likely on PC anyway. In many ways the cross platform revolution already happened.


That said, i think a creator has the right to stipulate where they sell their wares and how. That too is a fundamental right, although i could see how some people might disagree with that, it is what it is.

I don't think it actually matters what the motivation of people is to emulate games. As long as they bought the software they should have every right to use it as they like. If people use it for piracy then well you can also use a knife for multiple purposes. Note that I am not disagreeing with your last statement, but I don't see any impact an emulator has on the how and where creators choose to sell. To be blunt, this reads a bit like an apology for Nintendo's handling of the situation, which isn't the first rodeo where Nintendo has shown its anti-consumer stance.

Oh no, i mostly agree, i was just answering the post above where by the statement was made around having anything be compatible with anything else ad-infinitum not only is this impractical but it would invariably lead to massive over regulation which would only benefit the very corporations that it was designed to tackle. Because smaller companies could not keep up with making everything compatible with everything else thus ironically killing innovation.

with regards to Nintendo's handling of the situation i understand their position when you look into how much of a spotlight yuzu was putting on itself. i wouldn't call it an apology though. It's Nintendo after all


I thought this was a good write up:

https://gbatemp.net/threads/the-unknowns-of-emulation-a-breakdown-of-yuzu-v-nintendo.650187/#post-10372748


Last edited by Lofty on 22 March 2024 at 12:55 am UTC

Quoting: LoftyThat said, i think a creator has the right to stipulate where they sell their wares and how. That too is a fundamental right, although i could see how some people might disagree with that, it is what it is.

I am perfectly fine with that. My beef is with corporations claiming the right to determine where and how consumers play/view the purchased media (or license or whatever).

This is a vast broadening of corporate power over our culture which should never have been granted through the dmca backdoor.

I distinctly recall people who were warning about this sort of thing (otherwise legal activities getting blocked by the dmca's anti drm-circumvention provision) being framed as panic mongers, turns out that even they did not realise the full scope of power granted by this piece of legislation.

We have arrived at the point of coffee-pads and ink-cart replacements being drm-ed and repairs getting blocked by drm's legal powers now.


Last edited by emphy on 22 March 2024 at 12:30 am UTC

Quoting: LoftyNot that i ever want to side with a giant mega corporation but i can kind of understand the Nintendo perspective on switch emulation, i mean people are emulating games that are practically day one release on emulators, sometimes games that have been leaked. Emulation is meant for game preservation and nostalgia (edit* not exclusively) It's not very nostalgic emulating a current gen game on non supported hardware and it's not a game that needs preserving whilst its still on immediate sale.

Many emulators have emulated current generation games for other hardware.

Dolphin emulated Gamecube only 2 years after it was first released, in 2003.

PCSX2 started in 2002, only 2 years after the Playstation 2 was released. PCSXR was started 4 years after the first playstation released, and the emulator would eventually be used by Sony themselves in their classic console.

Connectix was released 5 years after the first Playstation was released.

PPSSPP started 7 years after the PSP was released while it was still being sold, which is the same amount of time between when the Switch was first released and now.

Bleem! emulated Sony games for the Sega Saturn in the same generation.

Unsurprisingly, Citra was started 3 years after the release of the 3DS.

Quoting: pleasereadthemanual

Quoting: LoftyNot that i ever want to side with a giant mega corporation but i can kind of understand the Nintendo perspective on switch emulation, i mean people are emulating games that are practically day one release on emulators, sometimes games that have been leaked. Emulation is meant for game preservation and nostalgia (edit* not exclusively) It's not very nostalgic emulating a current gen game on non supported hardware and it's not a game that needs preserving whilst its still on immediate sale.

Many emulators have emulated current generation games for other hardware.

Dolphin emulated Gamecube only 2 years after it was first released, in 2003.

PCSX2 started in 2002, only 2 years after the Playstation 2 was released. PCSXR was started 4 years after the first playstation released, and the emulator would eventually be used by Sony themselves in their classic console.

Connectix was released 5 years after the first Playstation was released.

PPSSPP started 7 years after the PSP was released while it was still being sold, which is the same amount of time between when the Switch was first released and now.

Bleem! emulated Sony games for the Sega Saturn in the same generation.

Unsurprisingly, Citra was started 3 years after the release of the 3DS.

True, but slightly exaggerated. Those early emulators at the time weren't exactly performant & bug free across a wide catalogue of games and the systems used to emulate ( PC ) were not doing so with ease at 4k. And furthermore emulation was nowhere near the level that is it now with big name youtubers showing off day one releases running flawlessly on competing hardware (steam deck) from a platform (switch) that is currently on sale.

and valve showing yuzu in their promotional steam deck thumbnail

With regards to the 7 years of PPSSPP that a fair old time along but i take your point, but even so the emulation quality of today with such a large global community of developers is WAY bigger than it was back then.

Id argue Retro gaming is becoming more popular than current year gaming. Because most AAA games are garbage.


Last edited by Lofty on 22 March 2024 at 12:43 am UTC

Quoting: emphy

Quoting: LoftyThat said, i think a creator has the right to stipulate where they sell their wares and how. That too is a fundamental right, although i could see how some people might disagree with that, it is what it is.

I am perfectly fine with that. My beef is with corporations claiming the right to determine where and how consumers play/view the purchased media (or license or whatever).

This is a vast broadening of corporate power over our culture which should never have been granted through the dmca backdoor.

I distinctly recall people who were warning about this sort of thing (otherwise legal activities getting blocked by the dmca's anti drm-circumvention provision) being framed as panic mongers, turns out that even they did not realise the full scope of power granted by this piece of legislation.

We have arrived at the point of coffee-pads and ink-cart replacements being drm-ed and repairs getting blocked by drm's legal powers now.

i admit im probably not the best read person on DRM and DMCA. Perhaps it should be seen as a positive thing, when a developer knows their game is going on switch and is emulated regardless then they may aswell release on PC .. i think we are there now. Exclusives are pretty much dead, even Sony is releasing some of their best work on PC. Microsoft are doing the same.


BTW It's of course somewhat scandalous to DRM a printer cartridge, although there is always a (weak) counter argument that a 3rd party cartridge could destroy the printer. Software isn't hardware and vise versa.


Last edited by Lofty on 22 March 2024 at 1:26 am UTC

Quoting: LoftyAnd furthermore emulation was nowhere near the level that is it now with big name youtubers showing off day one releases running flawlessly on competing hardware (steam deck) from a platform (switch) that is currently on sale.

Technically that was the objective of bleem! with emulating current-gen Playstation games on the competing Sega Saturn; the quality may not have been great, but if they could have made it great, they would have. I don't think whether the emulator performs well or not really has much of an impact on the ethics.

Take second-hand products, for example. Is the only reason selling products you own second-hand is legal because they might be of worse quality than a new product? I don't think this has anything to do with it ethically.

Quoting: LoftyTrue, but slightly exaggerated. Those early emulators at the time weren't exactly performant & bug free across a wide catalogue of games and the systems used to emulate ( PC ) were not doing so with ease at 4k.

and valve showing yuzu in their promotional steam deck thumbnail

With regards to the 7 years of PPSSPP that a fair old time along but i take your point, but even so the emulation quality of today with such a large global community of developers is WAY bigger than it was back then.

I don't really have a horse in this race because I've used emulation exactly once, to play an hour of the original Mario game, over a decade ago. And...maybe a few Pokemon ROM hacks way back when?

From what I've heard, Switch emulators offer a much better experience than the Switch console. Higher resolutions and frame rates, for example. If somebody has bought the game, shouldn't they be able to play it wherever they want? Wine isn't emulation, but the same principle applies: should Linux users not morally be able to play Windows games they bought on Steam?

Emulators allow people to play games they haven't bought, but the fact is, you can play games you haven't bought on a hacked Switch itself anyway. If Yuzu and Ryujinx went away for good, people who don't pay for games will still be able to play those game ROMs on the Switch and get the same experience as a paying customer.

At least they have to buy an older Switch now, I guess, but companies usually lose money on every console they sell, so that's not really a benefit...

The difference is, emulators seem to offer a better experience than a Switch. Isn't it...anti-competitive not to allow that?

That being said, if Valve taking a harsh stance against emulation convinces Nintendo to bring their games to Steam, that can only be a good thing.

I don't really have a horse in this race, but that's how I see it.

Quoting: LoftyId argue Retro gaming is becoming more popular than current year gaming. Because most AAA games are garbage.

On this, I can agree. Though I still really like Rainbow Six: Siege for the social aspect.

Quoting: pleasereadthemanual

Quoting: LoftyAnd furthermore emulation was nowhere near the level that is it now with big name youtubers showing off day one releases running flawlessly on competing hardware (steam deck) from a platform (switch) that is currently on sale.

Technically that was the objective of bleem! with emulating current-gen Playstation games on the competing Sega Saturn; the quality may not have been great, but if they could have made it great, they would have. I don't think whether the emulator performs well or not really has much of an impact on the ethics.

Take second-hand products, for example. Is the only reason selling products you own second-hand is legal because they might be of worse quality than a new product? I don't think this has anything to do with it ethically.

Quoting: LoftyTrue, but slightly exaggerated. Those early emulators at the time weren't exactly performant & bug free across a wide catalogue of games and the systems used to emulate ( PC ) were not doing so with ease at 4k.

and valve showing yuzu in their promotional steam deck thumbnail

With regards to the 7 years of PPSSPP that a fair old time along but i take your point, but even so the emulation quality of today with such a large global community of developers is WAY bigger than it was back then.

I don't really have a horse in this race because I've used emulation exactly once, to play an hour of the original Mario game, over a decade ago. And...maybe a few Pokemon ROM hacks way back when?

From what I've heard, Switch emulators offer a much better experience than the Switch console. Higher resolutions and frame rates, for example. If somebody has bought the game, shouldn't they be able to play it wherever they want? Wine isn't emulation, but the same principle applies: should Linux users not morally be able to play Windows games they bought on Steam?

Emulators allow people to play games they haven't bought, but the fact is, you can play games you haven't bought on a hacked Switch itself anyway. If Yuzu and Ryujinx went away for good, people who don't pay for games will still be able to play those game ROMs on the Switch and get the same experience as a paying customer.

At least they have to buy an older Switch now, I guess, but companies usually lose money on every console they sell, so that's not really a benefit...

The difference is, emulators seem to offer a better experience than a Switch. Isn't it...anti-competitive not to allow that?

That being said, if Valve taking a harsh stance against emulation convinces Nintendo to bring their games to Steam, that can only be a good thing.

I don't really have a horse in this race, but that's how I see it.

Quoting: LoftyId argue Retro gaming is becoming more popular than current year gaming. Because most AAA games are garbage.

On this, I can agree. Though I still really like Rainbow Six: Siege for the social aspect.

i like you am not too deep into this.

you did mention 'hacked switch' and of course games are encrypted so there needs to be some sort of copy protection keys in order to play them on PC (which is not something a lot of older console games have). I take your point though.

Being real id imagine a lot of switch games are not being played by legitimate owners of a switch cartridge.. perhaps not even an owner of a switch. All these games are New, on current year hardware that you can buy from a shop and play. The answer of course to release everything on PC, as always :P im not defending Nintendo ( like ever ) but yuzu didn't exactly play it low key when you take into account how popular switch emulation has become.

How is it different from emulating lets say a 20yr old PS2 game ? perhaps fundamentally it is not that far apart, but the developer is not losing money on sales for a start, the hardware is well and truly out of action and there is no effective DRM to bypass or machine to crack. Maybe that's just semantics.


Last edited by Lofty on 22 March 2024 at 1:28 am UTC