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PayPalThere's a lot of blog posts and news articles being written right now centred around Microsoft's plans for updates to Windows 11, and potential kernel changes, with some thinking this means big things for Linux gaming.
Sorry to say, but I'm here to bring a more realistic take and to help keep all your feet on the ground.
This comes from a Microsoft blog post titled "Taking steps that drive resiliency and security for Windows customers", which is as a result of the recent CrowdStrike incident where an update took down millions of Windows PCs due to it running at the kernel-level inside Windows.
One that has been really doing the rounds lately, especially across Reddit and other social media is from Notebookcheck, with a rather sensational article title of "Microsoft paves the way for Linux gaming success with plan that would kill kernel-level anti-cheat".
Here's the thing: Microsoft don't actually say they will kill off kernel-level access, and if they tried that (again - they tried with Vista before), they will no doubt again face some pretty serious push-back from both cybersecurity vendors and regulators across various countries. Something that would likely be more hassle than its actually worth. What Microsoft do actually talk about, is providing additional options that are outside of kernel mode - a whole new platform to "meet the needs of security vendors".
This new security platform, if vendors chose to actually go ahead and use it, could mean the opposite for Linux gaming, and cause a whole bunch of new headaches when it comes to supporting it regardless of it being via Native Linux games, or Windows games through Wine and Proton. So if anything, I would say that rather than paving the way for Linux gaming to get better, it's just going to be another hurdle. As annoying as that is.
Just because some things may move out of the kernel-level, also doesn't mean things will suddenly work on Linux (or get any easier to support via Wine / Proton). There will be various ways for developers to detect Linux, and continue to block it.
Just look at Destiny 2 as the easy and simple example here, they very clearly check for and completely block Linux platforms from playing Destiny 2 via Proton with no way around it. From the official Bungie website:
Steam Deck and Destiny 2
Destiny 2 is not supported for play on the Steam Deck or on any system utilizing Steam Play's Proton unless Windows is installed and running. Players who attempt to launch Destiny 2 on the Steam Deck through SteamOS or Proton will be unable to enter the game and will be returned to their game library after a short time.
Players who are not accessing Destiny 2 through Windows and attempt to bypass the SteamOS/Proton incompatibility will be met with a game ban.
You could expect to see more of that.
Then there's another easy example, Rust from Facepunch. Garry Newman has been pretty outspoken in the past about it, and how when they last had Rust supported on Linux, another Facepunch developer noted it caused more cheating issues for them to have to deal with.
How about Fortnite? That's pretty much a "lol no" event too, it's not like things being client-side will suddenly mean Fortnite would work on Linux, it would absolutely continue to be blocked. At least, not until Linux / Steam Deck has tens of millions of users according to Epic's Tim Sweeney.
Roblox is an additional easy example here to really make the point. Their latest anti-cheat is not kernel level, and completely blocks Linux. Something doesn't need to be in the kernel to block Linux-based systems. This caused projects like Sober to appear to run the Android version.
There's really no easy answer to the anti-cheat problem for Linux / Steam Deck gaming right now, aside from perhaps developers having things done server-side where the platform you're playing on is less of an issue, or cloud gaming where the game isn't even on your machine. That's not to say it will be a problem that will never be solved, just don't expect changes to the way Windows handles things like security, anti-tamper, anti-cheat and so on to be in any way beneficial for Linux.
As usual, over to you in the comments: what are you thinking?
Article taken from GamingOnLinux.com.
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[quote=Cyba.Cowboy]
I've been on Linux for few years now, and I've had harder to fix issues on it than on Windows, such as software/OS slowly breaking every few updates - KDE has a list of issues for me that I can't seem to find peolople talk about (for example I cant switch displays without plasmashell completely breaking and needing to be terminated, or kwin just deciding to eat up all CPU power)
Web driver related problems were especially hell,
Modding games is way harder sometimes (thankfully Nexus might be tackling that slowly), dealing with Wine can still be dependency hell if you decide to run .exes off the net, winetricks is great but the average joe wouldnt want to use that.
Not to mention I've had countless liveCDs suddenly crash on me when left on idle when trying to distrohop, no matter the distro/usb drive/port used.
Dont get me wrong I love Linux and would never go back to Windows even though Ive also had to leave good amount of games and software behind, but I'd say the above can really ruin someone's experience, I'm scared to see how pipewire is set up now on my install lol it started giving me issues as well after a certain system update
Last edited by based on 16 September 2024 at 10:49 am UTC
[...]
Linux is still too hard for the non-technical people to use; it’s better than it was, but not quite there yet.
Ugh. I hate it when people parrot this claim.
Many modern Linux-based operating systems are just as easy to use as a typical Microsoft Windows operating system these days (certain distros could probably even claim they're easier to use!), and one can get by without ever touching Terminal or doing anything unusually "technical"... The option is still there of course, and many Linux users (myself included) prefer to use Terminal and things like that; but in 99% of cases, you can get by just fine without ever going down that path.
What needs to happen is that the Linux Community needs to shakes this "It's so technical most everyday users can't use it" reputation, because it's a reputation that's simply not true anymore.
I've been on Linux for few years now, and I've had harder to fix issues on it than on Windows, such as software/OS slowly breaking every few updates - KDE has a list of issues for me that I can't seem to find peolople talk about (for example I cant switch displays without plasmashell completely breaking and needing to be terminated, or kwin just deciding to eat up all CPU power)
Web driver related problems were especially hell,
Modding games is way harder sometimes (thankfully Nexus might be tackling that slowly), dealing with Wine can still be dependency hell if you decide to run .exes off the net, winetricks is great but the average joe wouldnt want to use that.
Not to mention I've had countless liveCDs suddenly crash on me when left on idle when trying to distrohop, no matter the distro/usb drive/port used.
Dont get me wrong I love Linux and would never go back to Windows even though Ive also had to leave good amount of games and software behind, but I'd say the above can really ruin someone's experience, I'm scared to see how pipewire is set up now on my install lol it started giving me issues as well after a certain system update
Last edited by based on 16 September 2024 at 10:49 am UTC
0 Likes
[quote=based]
I wasn't necessarily talking about linux but of the issue of spyware messing up kernel. You can have that on linux as well, you just need to patch the kernel. But on linux today that requires explicit user approval... which is mainly why gaming spyware doesn't like it.
My point is that sooner or later some global incident will happen on windows, and then it will happen again, since on Windows everybody regularly allow all kind of spyware/junk in the kernel with auto updates, without knowing what is coming in, closed source and purely based on the reputation of the vendor. This is in banking, finance, airport, energy grid, hospitals and whatever else. Sometimes it is even required by law.
It should be obvious to everyone that if a system is built by design so that bad things can happen, they will eventually happen. More so if bad actors can profit from that and have interest into make it happen.
And, for all that I know, now that linux starts to be adopted by many EU public administrations, it can even be they will mandate to have the same shit possible there as well by law. So it might even become a linux issue in the long term.
[...]
Linux is still too hard for the non-technical people to use; it’s better than it was, but not quite there yet.
Ugh. I hate it when people parrot this claim.
Many modern Linux-based operating systems are just as easy to use as a typical Microsoft Windows operating system these days (certain distros could probably even claim they're easier to use!), and one can get by without ever touching Terminal or doing anything unusually "technical"... The option is still there of course, and many Linux users (myself included) prefer to use Terminal and things like that; but in 99% of cases, you can get by just fine without ever going down that path.
What needs to happen is that the Linux Community needs to shakes this "It's so technical most everyday users can't use it" reputation, because it's a reputation that's simply not true anymore.
I've been on Linux for few years now, and I've had harder to fix issues on it than on Windows, such as software/OS slowly breaking every few updates - KDE has a list of issues for me that I can't seem to find peolople talk about (for example I cant switch displays without plasmashell completely breaking and needing to be terminated, or kwin just deciding to eat up all CPU power)
Web driver related problems were especially hell,
Modding games is way harder sometimes (thankfully Nexus might be tackling that slowly), dealing with Wine can still be dependency hell if you decide to run .exes off the net, winetricks is great but the average joe wouldnt want to use that.
Not to mention I've had countless liveCDs suddenly crash on me when left on idle when trying to distrohop, no matter the distro/usb drive/port used.
Dont get me wrong I love Linux and would never go back to Windows even though Ive also had to leave good amount of games and software behind, but I'd say the above can really ruin someone's experience, I'm scared to see how pipewire is set up now on my install lol it started giving me issues as well after a certain system update
I wasn't necessarily talking about linux but of the issue of spyware messing up kernel. You can have that on linux as well, you just need to patch the kernel. But on linux today that requires explicit user approval... which is mainly why gaming spyware doesn't like it.
My point is that sooner or later some global incident will happen on windows, and then it will happen again, since on Windows everybody regularly allow all kind of spyware/junk in the kernel with auto updates, without knowing what is coming in, closed source and purely based on the reputation of the vendor. This is in banking, finance, airport, energy grid, hospitals and whatever else. Sometimes it is even required by law.
It should be obvious to everyone that if a system is built by design so that bad things can happen, they will eventually happen. More so if bad actors can profit from that and have interest into make it happen.
And, for all that I know, now that linux starts to be adopted by many EU public administrations, it can even be they will mandate to have the same shit possible there as well by law. So it might even become a linux issue in the long term.
2 Likes, Who?
There already is already a non-kernel way to block wine the wine devs can do nothing to very little about.
Those handicapped blockers just don't use it.
If your read the wine developers communications about blocking attempts you will find them refer to it.
I think I know which one they mean.
Much like the wine devs I'm not going to name it, because somebody with the intent of blocking wine might read it.
Those handicapped blockers just don't use it.
If your read the wine developers communications about blocking attempts you will find them refer to it.
I think I know which one they mean.
Much like the wine devs I'm not going to name it, because somebody with the intent of blocking wine might read it.
0 Likes
I'm starting to see the possibilities here. Can we throw in Pierre Poilievre?
This is looking like a prisoner of war exchange, only instead of prisoners of war you're exchanging war criminals.
Most prisoner of war exchanges contain criminals too.
War criminals and terrorists are most common, but we also have other things.
1 Likes, Who?
Devs using eBPF on Windows will not be fine using eBPF on Linux because on Linux you can go one level deeper than that: The Linux kernel. On Windows, cheaters punch through vulnerable drivers for kernel level execution, this is why Valorant's Vanguard blocked keyboard drivers and stuff.The answer to that already exists on android.
(android) Secure boot, trust zone, tpms, etc.
Check whether it's running a signed kernel you trust.
GrapheneOS has an interesting piece about it(google did it).then the developers just aren't putting in as much effort for the Linux version.(which wouldn't be the first time we've seen this)
It's also exactly what you'd say if you couldn't be bothered to do something for a small audience and had necessarily-secret software to use as an excuse.That's certainly true. I don't know enough about how it works to say whether an as-effective solution is feasible.
Check out root detection android.
There're a lot of ways this is fought.
This ofcourse keeps up until someone starts running libreboot and can start editing the values there, but that is even more rare than linux.
Last edited by LoudTechie on 16 September 2024 at 1:21 pm UTC
0 Likes
At the end of the day, if developers want to block unsupported platforms, they have plenty of methods to do so. And there is no way to prevent this. The only option is to convince companies to consider Linux as a supported platform.Do not give in to the demands of moron corporate overlords like Tim Sweeney. Do not view the world like they do: everything is dark no matter how much money you have.
Which needs:
Enough players
An actual solution to the anti-cheat situation
If the game devs care about their game or are passionate about their craft, they'd be more interested than the player to make their games run on as many platforms as possible.
We have literally game pirates talking about installing Linux and testing their "crack" with Wine to make sure it runs in there as well xD! Literally.
How is this possible that a "cyber criminal" (depending on which region you live) cares more about the player experience than the actual game developers? It absolutely is not the case, it is because morons like Sweeney are in control.
Cyber criminals have no real protection they can hide behind the dmca doesn't count on piracy forums, being doxed is a prison sentence to them and there are no buyouts.
To them happy customers mean the availability of more money and sacrificial meat to hide behind.
0 Likes
I kinda wonder, though, if weaning off kernel-level access will help with playing on a VM. If I could run the windows-only games I occasionally play on a VM, I wouldn't be dualbooting.
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I kinda wonder, though, if weaning off kernel-level access will help with playing on a VM. If I could run the windows-only games I occasionally play on a VM, I wouldn't be dualbooting.Doubtful. Certain games very specifically disallow and block VMs, as they can be used to help cheating at scale.
1 Likes, Who?
mr-victory Sep 16
Secure boot, trust zone, tpmsIf a game demands a signed kernel/OS/whatever then what's the point of using Linux? The freedom is gone.
2 Likes, Who?
Doubtful. Certain games very specifically disallow and block VMs, as they can be used to help cheating at scale.Grumble grumble. The Windows drive stays. For now.
1 Likes, Who?
I know there is a lot of Microsoft hate hereYes indeed. And proud. Let's see (digs in wallet), I know I've got my MS-hater card around here somewhere.
Look under the table, you dropt it in the floor when you eagerly looked in your wallet
1 Likes, Who?
As far as I know, kernel anti-cheat is ineffective even on Windows, so I'm not sure what the devs are complaining about and what they are smoking.
I think Riot Games just put out a blog post on how Vanguard, their kernel level anti cheat, is helping to keep the cheating down.
0 Likes
Cyba.Cowboy Sep 16
If Nvidia gave 1.5 shits and make a not-embarrassing driver, I would say the experience across the board would infact be piss easy, plug and play.
What do you mean?
I have an entire house full of computers, one of which is fairly recent and the other which was bought only a few weeks ago, and NVIDIA drivers work flawlessly on every one of them that has an NVIDIA GPU... There's a reason I actually prefer to purchase laptops with NVIDIA hardware, these days.
My new laptop - which is what is mentioned on my profile - even runs everything in my Steam Library on the highest possible settings without missing a beat.
In the distant past I had problems with NVIDA drivers on an occasional basis, such as it screwing up the desktop environment if certain driver versions were selected... But I haven't seen that issue in, say, 10+ years.
Secure boot, trust zone, tpmsIf a game demands a signed kernel/OS/whatever then what's the point of using Linux? The freedom is gone.
The same could be said of Google Android, as this exact scenario applies with many, many applications...
0 Likes
Secure boot, trust zone, tpmsIf a game demands a signed kernel/OS/whatever then what's the point of using Linux? The freedom is gone.
My official answer is preformance and lack of espionage and bloat.
Edit:
and the ability to run various signed kernels
My unofficial answer is yeah, you're totally right.
DRM and anti-cheat are deepest corners of their hearts anti-freedom. They keep you from using your computer however you want. Nothing I can propose or suggest can avoid this.
If there currently exists a statisfying answer it's probably encoded in the source code of safe exam browser.
I say this, because it's literally open source anti-cheat software and doesn't require a kernel driver.
For the rest you can take the LOL or even stadia path and move everything to your servers, so you only have to battle scripting, which can be fought by turning parts of the game in live captcha's.
Edit: the safe exam browser one is a pretty creative and pretty freedom perserving one.
External verification tool.
During tests they have the teachers use an external verification program to check safe exam browser for cheating tools, but outside of tests all modifications are on the table.
This could be done for esports during events.
Last edited by LoudTechie on 17 September 2024 at 6:23 am UTC
1 Likes, Who?
Linux is still too hard for the non-technical people to use; it’s better than it was, but not quite there yet.Not really (see https://linuxmint.com for example... or the Steam Deck, why not?), but most windows users don't even know what an OS is (so are subject to whichever comes preinstalled... or are still under the (wrong for a while) impression that Linux is actually harder to use.
I'll just reuse my post from a couple weeks ago week on Phoronix to illustrate my point:
As someone who spends 8h each work day on win11, I can confidently say this:
A "nightmare UX" would make KDE feel more familiar to windows users, not less.
ps: i'll allow anyone to call me a blind linux fanboy for the above comment... after:
a) Microsoft fixes ctrl+c not always working
b) MS Teams starts to honor its own global settings when set to open documents on desktop apps instead of office365 web apps
c) volume controls stop using a 5-tiers control panel design with mixed modern and classic windows UIs where trivial features are in the 4th and 5th tier
d) nagging messaging from the OS (eg: to make MS Edge the default browser) is removed or at the very least can be marked "don't EVER ask this again" instead of "not now" which suppresses it for an undisclosed (too short) amount of time
e) default app for HTML files and clicking urls in non-browser apps stays at my custom setting instead of reverting to MS Edge every couple system updates
f) windows default file picker dialogs don't hang and crash if the last used location isn't accessible anymore (eg: save to sharepoint then disconnect VPN and try to save something else to somewhere else)
...
i'll stop short because my left eye is twitching now that i remembered this stuff... also today is Saturday and systematically describing those bugs feels like i'm working on a weekend, bleh!
Last edited by Marlock on 17 September 2024 at 9:55 am UTC
2 Likes, Who?
but most windows users don't even know what an OS isThe vast majority of PC users just see their OS as a bootloader for their web browser of choice.
2 Likes, Who?
To be fair, browser makers seem to have worked hard to turn the brower into an OS. So it's a fairly natural mistake at this point.but most windows users don't even know what an OS isThe vast majority of PC users just see their OS as a bootloader for their web browser of choice.
Last edited by Purple Library Guy on 17 September 2024 at 8:33 pm UTC
2 Likes, Who?
Kuduzkehpan Sep 18
all happenings are seems someone paying it to be that way.
but first of all fak immutable, Embrace rolling releases,
As a solution for gaming issues;
I play what i can. I pay what I can play mostly i just buy that game and stay away from micro transactions.
finally make a black list for linux hater companies persons etc, and curse them perdiodicly in every weekend.
Have fun.
also i have white list for good guys. ;)
cheers for them god bless you all. may the source be with you.
but first of all fak immutable, Embrace rolling releases,
As a solution for gaming issues;
I play what i can. I pay what I can play mostly i just buy that game and stay away from micro transactions.
finally make a black list for linux hater companies persons etc, and curse them perdiodicly in every weekend.
Have fun.
also i have white list for good guys. ;)
cheers for them god bless you all. may the source be with you.
1 Likes, Who?
[quote=based]
That sounds like a hardware / compatibility issue to me. Are you using nVidia by any chance, or some other non-Linux friendly hardware? Or maybe you're running a rubbish distro like Ubuntu?
I've got four machines - a desktop, laptop, mini PC and a handheld - all AMD - and have none of the issues you've mentioned. In fact, I can even say I've had zero major issues/breakages in the past year or so. I game on all of them, and use them for work and personal productivity as well. I mainly run KDE (and Wayfire on the mini PC), and my main distros are Arch, CachyOS and Bazzite, and it's honestly been a breeze.
Modding has been fine as well, I've modded Skyrim (via Nexus), GTA V (via Open IV) and Titan Quest (various tools) without any issues, and didn't have do anything super fancy - my trick is to install the modding app to the same prefix as the game (I just change the Steam launch options), and I haven't had any issues. Only "fancy" thing I did was using protontricks and created a shortcut to the mod tool, so that I don't have to change the properties each time.
As for random exes - you really shouldn't be running random exes from the web. What are these exactly, and are there no Linux-native or Web options? In any case, you don't want to run random exes using normal wine, use Bottles for it, which makes it a breeze to install any specific dependencies.
Now don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that Linux is perfect or has zero issues, but a majority of those really annoying/dealbreaker issues usually boils down to incompatible hardware, and/or running a subpar distro that uses an ancient kernel and system packages. If you're really serious about wanting a smooth Linux experience, then getting the right hardware, and choosing the right distro, is vital.
Last edited by d3Xt3r on 19 September 2024 at 12:02 am UTC
[...]
Linux is still too hard for the non-technical people to use; it’s better than it was, but not quite there yet.
Ugh. I hate it when people parrot this claim.
Many modern Linux-based operating systems are just as easy to use as a typical Microsoft Windows operating system these days (certain distros could probably even claim they're easier to use!), and one can get by without ever touching Terminal or doing anything unusually "technical"... The option is still there of course, and many Linux users (myself included) prefer to use Terminal and things like that; but in 99% of cases, you can get by just fine without ever going down that path.
What needs to happen is that the Linux Community needs to shakes this "It's so technical most everyday users can't use it" reputation, because it's a reputation that's simply not true anymore.
I've been on Linux for few years now, and I've had harder to fix issues on it than on Windows, such as software/OS slowly breaking every few updates - KDE has a list of issues for me that I can't seem to find peolople talk about (for example I cant switch displays without plasmashell completely breaking and needing to be terminated, or kwin just deciding to eat up all CPU power)
Web driver related problems were especially hell,
Modding games is way harder sometimes (thankfully Nexus might be tackling that slowly), dealing with Wine can still be dependency hell if you decide to run .exes off the net, winetricks is great but the average joe wouldnt want to use that.
Not to mention I've had countless liveCDs suddenly crash on me when left on idle when trying to distrohop, no matter the distro/usb drive/port used.
Dont get me wrong I love Linux and would never go back to Windows even though Ive also had to leave good amount of games and software behind, but I'd say the above can really ruin someone's experience, I'm scared to see how pipewire is set up now on my install lol it started giving me issues as well after a certain system update
That sounds like a hardware / compatibility issue to me. Are you using nVidia by any chance, or some other non-Linux friendly hardware? Or maybe you're running a rubbish distro like Ubuntu?
I've got four machines - a desktop, laptop, mini PC and a handheld - all AMD - and have none of the issues you've mentioned. In fact, I can even say I've had zero major issues/breakages in the past year or so. I game on all of them, and use them for work and personal productivity as well. I mainly run KDE (and Wayfire on the mini PC), and my main distros are Arch, CachyOS and Bazzite, and it's honestly been a breeze.
Modding has been fine as well, I've modded Skyrim (via Nexus), GTA V (via Open IV) and Titan Quest (various tools) without any issues, and didn't have do anything super fancy - my trick is to install the modding app to the same prefix as the game (I just change the Steam launch options), and I haven't had any issues. Only "fancy" thing I did was using protontricks and created a shortcut to the mod tool, so that I don't have to change the properties each time.
As for random exes - you really shouldn't be running random exes from the web. What are these exactly, and are there no Linux-native or Web options? In any case, you don't want to run random exes using normal wine, use Bottles for it, which makes it a breeze to install any specific dependencies.
Now don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that Linux is perfect or has zero issues, but a majority of those really annoying/dealbreaker issues usually boils down to incompatible hardware, and/or running a subpar distro that uses an ancient kernel and system packages. If you're really serious about wanting a smooth Linux experience, then getting the right hardware, and choosing the right distro, is vital.
Last edited by d3Xt3r on 19 September 2024 at 12:02 am UTC
0 Likes
software/OS slowly breaking every few updatesfrom personal experience: Linux updates can be more vulnerable to memory corruption issues originated from hardware issues (aka bad RAM stick) because it replaces an entire component by a new version instead of patching it
i know this because my first Intel NUC came with one bad RAM stick and linux consistently degraded and broke after most updates, while windows mostly froze and bluescreened, but didn't break in a persistent manner...
...until I replaced the RAM stick and then Linux went back to being an overall better choice for a hundred other reasons (this was my impression on linux vs. win7 before Microsoft started pushing bad updates and forcing reboots)
burn a Linux Mint liveboot .iso to an usb stick and boot into it... one of its boot menu choices is MEMTEST... let that run overnight in the most complete test mode and it will probably reveal some errors in some memory access patterns
1 Likes, Who?
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