Quoting: damarrinThere is a difference between saying "this code is crap because a b c, please fix this and it will be considered again" and the things Linus has been saying. They will be equally effective as regards the quality of code in Linux if in both cases the code is simply not accepted.

No-one is born perfect and fully formed and the expectation that someone who is just starting with kernel development will be immediately able to satisfy the code maintainer's expectations is nonsensical.

I do not find any sense on the argument about the hypothetical kernel development who is just starting. There is an established hierarchy and there are only a few people that Linus does care about. The rest will have to go through that road and that means no contact with Linus at all anyway. So all this makes no sense.

Also there are many cases (maybe most of the time) that you just do not want to accept the code. You do not want the developer to spend any time in any kind of fix because you are not going to accept no matter what. The sooner to clearly stop him the better.

Quoting: lucinosAlso there are many cases (maybe most of the time) that you just do not want to accept the code. You do not want the developer to spend any time in any kind of fix because you are not going to accept no matter what. The sooner to clearly stop him the better.

I fail to see how this has anything to do with the matter at hand.

Also, are only a select few allowed to submit code to the kernel?

Quoting: damarrinAlso, are only a select few allowed to submit code to the kernel?

Actually there is only one guy who is "really" submitting code to the kernel and that is Linus. Now that he left for a while he said who is in charge (I think Greg, I am not checking if I am wrong). So at any moment one guy and only one is accountable. That makes a clear hierarchy. Of course the code is GPL so anyone can patch and distribute but then it would be a fork. (many distros actually do that to the kernel but so far there has been no real fork in the sense that they keep getting the realises from Linus and do their little modifications. only google with android was close to really be a fork but to maintain a real fork would be too expensive.)

But we are not in the 90s. You do not send a patch directly to Linus. You contact with the people that are more closely related with what the patch does and the code reach Linus through a network of trust. There are only very few people Linus trust and will get code (probably without even checking that code most of the times).

Quoting: lucifertdarkthis is a show of weakness on his part & they're never going to let it go now, I'd say he's done for good.

Yeah, surely this is the beginning of the end for Linus the Gorilla.... It's only a matter of time now, that a younger male from the troop will step up to take his place. Such is the way of the jungle.

Quoting: GuestI'm also pragmatic; that Linus is taking this break and that a code of conduct (which I've read, and is not unreasonable at all) is being formally introduced is precisely because it's apparent that something _isn't_ working and there are attempts to rectify the situation.

This is what baffles me regarding people crying about SJWs and the death of the kernel. The new code of conduct essentially boils down to "don't discriminate or attack others while on our plaftorm or representing our community." That's like... basic civility that should apply anywhere. Assuming the people there were already civilized and humane, there's no reason anything should even change in the day-to-day. Evidently, Linus himself was lacking in that department so he's taking time off to reorient himself. It shouldn't stop him or anyone else from being just as critical and preserving high standards; he might just be less of a prick about it.

Quoting: SalvatosThis is what baffles me regarding people crying about SJWs and the death of the kernel. The new code of conduct essentially boils down to "don't discriminate or attack others while on our plaftorm or representing our community." That's like... basic civility that should apply anywhere. Assuming the people there were already civilized and humane, there's no reason anything should even change in the day-to-day.

Have you carefully read it? Please take a look at the Scope section. This is a clearly stated witch hunt intent. I'll quote:

QuoteThis Code of Conduct applies both within project spaces and in public spaces when an individual is representing the project or its community. Examples of representing a project or community include using an official project e-mail address, posting via an official social media account, or acting as an appointed representative at an online or offline event. Representation of a project may be further defined and clarified by project maintainers.

It's not just about mailing list. Wherever you might post anything irrelevant to the project but using your e-mail or any other account, you'll be called out for that. And it's not a rare thing to happen even for your past messages from years ago. You'll need to watch your mouth (or fingers) each second if you don't want to be kicked out of the project and use that "inclusive genderless language" everywhere. Good luck with that.

And yeah, "when an individual is representing the project or its community" is intentionally very vague, it can be used basically anywhere if needed. And it will be.

Quoting: rkfg

QuoteThis Code of Conduct applies both within project spaces and in public spaces when an individual is representing the project or its community. Examples of representing a project or community include using an official project e-mail address, posting via an official social media account, or acting as an appointed representative at an online or offline event. Representation of a project may be further defined and clarified by project maintainers.

It's not just about mailing list. Wherever you might post anything irrelevant to the project but using your e-mail or any other account, you'll be called out for that.

But that's wrong. It specifically says that it applies only when you are officially representing the project (or interact within project spaces in any capacity). i.e. say you're posting on Twitter, you can say whatever you like on your private account, but not from the official account of your project. That's exactly the kind of protection many companies give themselves to avoid their employees giving them a bad name, if not more lenient.

And as mirv already pointed out, you added the bit about "genderless" - it only asks to be welcoming and inclusive, which frankly is subjective enough that I don't see it being enforced for anything short of telling newcomers to fuck off, unless the people in charge are trigger-happy SJWs themselves. In which case I'd say, write it off and fork it.

Quoting: Guest@jarhead_h:

There's a difference between being a harsh taskmaster, and being insulting. There's absolutely no reason to insult and put people down for mistakes. There's no reason why telling people trying to do improper things means you have to berate them. It's just as easy to keep it technical, keep it professional, and make decisions without insulting or being derogatory.

Put another way, if I disagreed with you, should I then verbally abuse you? I think you would be quick to take offense.

Why Linus has been good at leading Linux development has nothing to do with abuse. It has everything to do with making competent decisions and keeping development direction in check - something I've seen others do just as well without the insults. Linus seems to now realise this and is taking steps to address it. Which is really responsible of him to do, and if he can come back and keep up managerial role of leading kernel development, then things will probably be twice as good as they are now.

That's not to say that people can never be, well, frustrated, or can never make the odd obscenity. But there are limits.

Thank you, exactly.
There is a huge difference between "your code is crap" and "you (as a person) are crap". Saying the latter is not OK, no matter the circumstances.

We're a charming bunch, aren't we? :S:

Quoting: GuestThere's nothing in there regarding "inclusive genderless language". At all. So all you're doing is spreading a bit of FUD here.

There's nothing in there YET. The Code of Conduct will be ignored by the people that wanted it until they get a chance to use it against someone that they want to get rid of, then it will be applied to that person with a vengeance. Just remember that when it happens, not IF, but when, the Code of Conduct is working as designed when it chases off the productive members of the project. As others have stated, it already happened to FreeBSD. We already know how this goes because we can chart it in real-time over there.

This is classic Linus, the horrors of an idiot being told off(again):
https://lkml.org/lkml/2012/12/23/75

This is my the most relative part:

QuoteIt's a bug alright - in the kernel. How long have you been a
maintainer? And you *still* haven't learnt the first rule of kernel
maintenance?

If a change results in user programs breaking, it's a bug in the
kernel. We never EVER blame the user programs. How hard can this be to
understand?

And Linus is completely pissed off that he continually refers to everything that was working as broken, because his patch made working programs stop working. He swears at him, tells him to shut the f^&K up, calls him a idiot, and in general belittles the hell out of him. And he earned every bit of it. He didn't just own up, he blamed everybody else for why his patch broke everything. And then he agrees with Linus a lot in the resulting back and forth.

Oh, no. He had to READ harsh words. What a horror. How awful. Linus didn't even really yell at him.

I don't know, maybe it's my Marine Corps background, but this is pretty normal to me. You get it done, you might get yelled at a whole bunch with lots of bad words, and there's nobody on the other end shinning up a participation trophy for you, but you got the job done. Or you get out of the way so that someone else can.