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how maintainable is proton?
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ExpandingMan Feb 1, 2022
I'm glad to see the steamdeck coming out later this month, and am excited by its unprecedented openness for a device like this. Unfortunately I am not very optimistic about its prospects for commercial success as it's pretty hard to understand who its audience is and everybody I've discussed this with has shared this skepticism (though none of these people are gaming industry experts by any means).

While I hope we are wrong about this, the prospect of a high profile commercial failure of the steamdeck has me speculating about the possibility that valve will, at some point, "give up" on proton. This has gotten me thinking a lot more about something I was already concerned about, how easy is it to maintain proton?

I'm pretty ignorant here, and I'm opening this thread because my own ability to assess this is extremely limited. On one hand, I have anecdotally observed that most issues that keep games from running properly are what I would categorize as "OS, wine issues", missing DLL's, improper DLL versions, registry misconfiguration, that sort of thing. I see problems that are obvious issues that affect dxvk less often, though certainly they pop up. DX11 seems pretty reliable at this point, but DX12 is still quite unstable.

Another consideration is how much MS can make breaking changes (or non-backward compatible additions) to DX11 and DX12. Obviously these would require modifications to dxvk, but would be difficult for MS to deploy for the same reasons.

So, this is an open question for anyone more deeply involved with proton and dxvk: how maintainable do you think this really is? If valve completely bails on the concept of linux gaming, to what degree do you think the existing community can keep linux a viable option for gaming? dxvk itself looks like it has a truck factor of 1 or 2, which on one hand is discouraging because there probably aren't many experts, but on another is very encouraging because it suggests it might not have taken a monumental effort to get this far.
PublicNuisance Feb 1, 2022
Quoting: ExpandingManam excited by its unprecedented openness for a device like this.

How exactly is the Steam Deck open ?
mr-victory Feb 1, 2022
It is a x86_64 PC, you can install whatever OS or programs to it without having to jailbreak.
whizse Feb 1, 2022
Wine is 28 years old. So very maintainable.
Ehvis Feb 1, 2022
Quoting: whizseWine is 28 years old. So very maintainable.

If microsoft wanted to, they could end future compatibility without too much trouble. So it's only maintainable as long as microsoft won't do something silly.
GustyGhost Feb 2, 2022
With any translation layer, you're forever following a moving target that is dictated by MS. Even under perfect upkeep, there is always going to be some breakage. I don't want to sound like a broken record but Wine and derivatives are not "Gaming on Linux" they are "Gaming on Windows on Linux".
Liam Dawe Feb 2, 2022
Quoting: GustyGhostWith any translation layer, you're forever following a moving target that is dictated by MS. Even under perfect upkeep, there is always going to be some breakage. I don't want to sound like a broken record but Wine and derivatives are not "Gaming on Linux" they are "Gaming on Windows on Linux".
I don't really agree there.

Gaming on Windows on Linux would be through some sort of VM with pass-through.

Proton / Wine are a compatibility layer, that runs everything through Linux. It absolutely is Linux gaming. It's already proven itself to be maintainable. Sure it will be behind when Microsoft introduce new stuff, and Microsoft could make steps to be difficult but Valve + CodeWeavers will cross that bridge when/if it happens.

If the Steam Deck was a big success and we suddenly had a good share of users, if it proven too much to get a game working in Wine / Proton - there's every possibility a developer will then do a port. We would never get to that point without Proton / Wine though, because there simply wasn't enough of a push anywhere.
GustyGhost Feb 2, 2022
Quoting: Liam DaweI don't really agree there.

Gaming on Windows on Linux would be through some sort of VM with pass-through.

Proton / Wine are a compatibility layer, that runs everything through Linux. It absolutely is Linux gaming. It's already proven itself to be maintainable. Sure it will be behind when Microsoft introduce new stuff, and Microsoft could make steps to be difficult but Valve + CodeWeavers will cross that bridge when/if it happens.

If the Steam Deck was a big success and we suddenly had a good share of users, if it proven too much to get a game working in Wine / Proton - there's every possibility a developer will then do a port. We would never get to that point without Proton / Wine though, because there simply wasn't enough of a push anywhere.

Yes, if you are to take the analogy literally. It makes me think of an old infograph somebody once made regarding the different simultaneous multithread configurations. I can't find it so I'll just remake it, bear with me:

The point being there is a gradient between the two extremes, to which I would draw the analogy for translation layers and VMs both being different degrees of "running 'Windows'".
Ehvis Feb 2, 2022
Quoting: GustyGhostThe point being there is a gradient between the two extremes, to which I would draw the analogy for translation layers and VMs both being different degrees of "running 'Windows'".

There is no degree. Either you need a Windows licence or you do not.
gbudny Feb 3, 2022
The biggest issue for Wine or Proton has different versions, and companies release their versions of games like 367, 381. In this case, it is impossible to predict a situation when a change in source code breaks something, and a user will get stuck reading HOWTO about a few specific games for hours.

It's not a solution for an end-user. I want to believe that PC users will start to use other emulators to play games every day. Unfortunately, it's not going to happen.

I can explain to someone that a specific game requires this version of GLIBC, SDL, etc. I stuck with a second PC to run old games and outdated versions of Linux distributions from 2003 and 2010. Sometimes, I want to install a game and play it.

I can't recommend Proton or Wine to someone who wants to switch from Windows to Linux.

I have no idea if someone's game will work without any issues. It's even more complex and highly unpredictable. We are talking about convincing people to buy games for a different platform to run on Linux. I'm a former Wine, Cedega, and Crossover user. Wine can't replace Windows, but it is sometimes fine if you want to unpack something to use a source port.

Last edited by gbudny on 3 February 2022 at 3:13 am UTC
Shmerl Feb 3, 2022
About maintainability. The interesting thing about Wine is that it provides long term support for games by translating even very old Windows libraries into modern Linux ones. So you can run like games from ancient Windows that don't even run on modern Windows anymore.

In a way it's a benefit that's better than even the ability to run native Linux games on Linux itself long term, due to Linux userland breaking over time and not trying to support very old libraries intentionally.

This isn't often talked about as a benefit that Wine provides, but it surely is a very useful one. I think it could be cool if someone could also develop the same thing for Linux itself, i.e. a layer that translates Linux libraries into modern ones, so even ancient ones work fine. That would make native Linux games maintainable long term as well. I don't think there is such project at present.

Last edited by Shmerl on 3 February 2022 at 12:59 am UTC
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