Why should Liam and everyone else have to do all this work, for the sake of informing a tiny few who think it's safe to keep using ancient unsupported distros?

I normally try to stay out of these kinds of discussions for uh... well, a few reasons. With that said, I think in this instance I will speak up.

I hate DRM, in any form as it limits what a consumer is able to do, or not to do with their software. In general the purpose of avoiding DRM is not so you can run the game on a really old computer. That's a poor argument, even though it's in favour of removing the DRM.

This is because new software will eventually stop working on old distributions, and old software will stop working on new distributions. This isn't even including the security risk you take by running those old distributions. Now, none of this is caused by DRM. This is because underlying system libraries change, and in some cases it can even be due to architecture changes (Think x86 software on a purely x86_64 system, where x86 libraries are not present). This is why for example Steam had to drop Windows 7 support, since some system libraries necessary for modern chromium just aren't available for Windows 7. It had nothing to do with DRM, it was purely technical.

So, what can we do about this? Well we can attempt to run the software on the latest distribution, perhaps in a container or something like distrobox which could include the libraries necessary for the game to run. Assuming you remain on a compatible architecture that the game was compiled for. (e.g, using x86_64 for a x86 games, and not trying to run x86 games on ARM for example. Though, I guess with some kind of emulation that could also be feasible.)

This is the safest and most ideal situation, as you don't open yourself up to as many potential security issues as you would if you simply ran an old distribution.

Now, DRM how does that affect all of this? Well it can be both significant and insignificant depending on the DRM we are discussing. And let's not forget you may be able to get DRM free versions of the game from GOG.

Steam's DRM isn't quite the same as the others, at least nothing like Denuvo and its ilk. Steam's "DRM" is not primarily used to restrict you and, while it is true it will want the steam client to open and want to verify game ownership this is in fact primarily to enable things like achievements, trading cards, controller configuration, the overlay etc. Technically speaking though, you are correct that it is a DRM.

If a game truly only has this DRM (Steam DRM) and that it does not feature further DRM such as always online or Denuvo then you can strip that DRM out within a matter of seconds, using a particular emulator which I cannot go into further detail on, here. Just know that given your hypothetical situation where Steam DRM was the limitation, you'd be able to remove it quickly and without breaking the game at all.

Valve actually leave this weak on purpose, this is no accident and they have even admitted it. See here:
https://partner.steamgames.com/doc/features/drm

So while it may give the temporary illusion of "renting" the game due to the DRM, you can quickly switch that to "owning it" should you require to do so and in general Steam will not try to punish you for doing this.

Given the nature of Steam DRM, we can safely assume that the majority of Steam games will include it, if only for achievements support or trading cards. Given that you are using this store willingly, you most likely accept those aspects. So it would be quite pointless to point this particular DRM out, since:

a) It can be quickly and easily removed.
b) You know you're on Steam, and you most likely want the features it offers.

With this in mind, it could be concluded by using Steam you are happy to have this basic level of DRM. If you oppose this level of DRM then a store like GOG is more ideal for you.

I use Steam and I hate DRM. I continue to use it knowing as long as those files are on my computer, I can easily remove the DRM (which I often do).

But, with all that said, I do think and agree that it would be beneficial to list on articles and such if a game includes further DRM such as Denuvo or other always online features. These kinds of DRM cannot be easily removed and it will turn your game into a "rented" game, which can be taken away at any moment.

Quoting: PenglingWhy should Liam and everyone else have to do all this work, for the sake of informing a tiny few who think it's safe to keep using ancient unsupported distros?

The big community of users that don't treat Steam like a streaming service. I know some users don't have favorite games and don't care what will happen to them. Some users want to play only in the current or supported games. We have the same situation with movies or games in services like Stadia (which is closed now). Renting is a great option for users who don't go back to playing their favorite games.

Liam doesn't have to check every game when you have a poll that users vote for. I think some small companies will appreciate it when users add their votes and leave positive comments about them. Maybe some porters will start to convince companies to reconsider removing DRM from their games.

Some DRM-free games are only available on Steam - GOG or itch.io isn't the replacement here.

We don't know how long Valve will be involved in developing Steam for Linux. It could be 5, 10, or 20 years. When it happens, Steam will disappear with all rented games. You can be in a situation with different platforms similar to Steam. Unfortunately, supported Linux distributions will be useless for rented games from Valve in the past.

You can see how slowly Valve is dropping the technical support for games on Apple computers. Nobody knows what will happen in the future.

We can have a better experience with Steam if we know what Valve is selling and renting.

Last edited by gbudny on 8 February 2024 at 12:32 am UTC

Quoting: BlackBloodRumBut, with all that said, I do think and agree that it would be beneficial to list on articles and such if a game includes further DRM such as Denuvo or other always online features. These kinds of DRM cannot be easily removed and it will turn your game into a "rented" game, which can be taken away at any moment.

This, I agree with and feel would be useful, since it's usually disclosed on the Steam page to begin with (which I'm guessing does get checked when articles are written) - especially considering the particularly nasty behaviour of Capcom recently, who has been going back and adding undeclared new DRM to older releases that had none before, or that had had the notorious Denuvo previously removed.

Of course, it falls down in cases like Capcom's, where the Steam pages don't declare it - which I'm told might not be above board in some geographical regions.

Quoting: gbudnyThe big community of users that don't treat Steam like a streaming service. I know some users don't have favorite games and don't care what will happen to them. Some users want to play only in the current or supported games. We have the same situation with movies or games in services like Stadia (which is closed now). Renting is a great option for users who don't go back to playing their favorite games.

Liam doesn't have to check every game when you have a poll that users vote for. I think some small companies will appreciate it when users add their votes and leave positive comments about them. Maybe some porters will start to convince companies to reconsider removing DRM from their games.

Some DRM-free games are only available on Steam - GOG or itch.io isn't the replacement here.

We don't know how long Valve will be involved in developing Steam for Linux. It could be 5, 10, or 20 years. When it happens, Steam will disappear with all rented games. You can be in a situation with different platforms similar to Steam. Unfortunately, supported Linux distributions will be useless for rented games from Valve in the past.

You can see how slowly Valve is dropping the technical support for games on Apple computers. Nobody knows what will happen in the future.

We can have a better experience with Steam if we know what Valve is selling and renting.

Yeah, but that's not going to help you to run games from 2035, 2045, and 2055 on a distro from 2012.

BlackBloodRum, above, has got you covered for the rest, since it seems that you missed his post.

If you're interested in enumerating DRM-encumbered and DRM-free games, you might try visiting/contributing to these pages on PCGamingWiki:

[1] https://www.pcgamingwiki.com/wiki/The_Big_List_of_DRM-Free_Games_on_Steam
[2] https://www.pcgamingwiki.com/wiki/The_Big_List_of_3rd_Party_DRM_on_Steam

GOL isn't really the place for this.

I think that 1) GOL is not the place for this, it should be on a more dedicated database or wiki instead of being attached to articles about a select few games and that isn't steam-specific. 2) Having random people submit this data is often unreliable, it is not easy to check and people will mis-tag many games.. or games can add/remove DRM after being tagged.

In fact, I'll say that you are either naively or ideologically using the term DRM wrong and conflating different things. DRM is a system for preventing "illegitimate" copies; steam has it's own DRM system, CEG. Games that, due to poor implementation, break when missing the steam API do not have DRM even though they require steam to run - you need to emulate steam to fix them, rather than "crack" them, which has important technical and legal repercussions. And Steam is definitely not DRM: it is a client you have to use to first download games, but you are (lacking actual DRM) free to copy those games afterwards; it might be a particularly inconvenient installer, or a restrictive way of distributing download links, but it is not DRM. And while having your rights restricted by DRM is bad, it is not "renting". We have subscriptions to access games and other such business models.

I hate DRM and I hate forced obsolescence and I hate EULAs and all that, but let's be clear about what we are talking about... and pragmatic about how we deal with it. This information should be on steam, and both laws and culture about it must change, but adding scare tags on GOL is hardly a solution to anything.

I can safely tell you: no.

I'm not going to add polls to every article.

Quoting: Liam DaweI can safely tell you: no.

I'm not going to add polls to every article.

Thank you for the answer.

What do you think about adding polls only for articles about games on Steam if it's the only store where you can buy them?

For example, I saw games that weren't accepted by GOG, and these companies decided not to try alternatives like itch.io.

I think it should be only limited to the DRM-free games that don't require any tricks like renaming or adding the specific Steam files.

In this case, you open the folder, install missing libraries (the only acceptable obstacle), and you can play them.

Nope. Not happening. Not enough people care, and it would just make articles messy.

Just not worth my time.