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QuoteThe attention of gamers is no longer in the hands of the Games industry, which is presently engaging in misleading hype, pre-order culture, and walled-garden mindset. Instead a lot of it has gone to just regular gamers who put themselves on Youtube and aren't in the pockets of publishers.

exactly because people start making a living off twitch/youtube game videos it is going back into the hands of the game industrie. you may watch this (totalbiscuit) microsoft paying gamers for positive videos
maybe im alone here but i see no positive sides in the commercialization of which was once a hobby. i wouldnt mind at all if this all reverts back to its earlier state and people dont earn their buck of it anymore (and thus eventually accept money from developers / industries instead of relying on advertisment alone, please dont tell me it isnt happening atleast in a "free streamkeys and hardware gifts" way.. plz).

gamers that stream or upload may have been an independent source to review a game when this all started but nowadays its just $_€ in most of their faces once they get some subscribers and give up their jobs for this.

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nice, looking pretty cool

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Quoting: HadBabitsOn the other hand, it means creative people can make a living from doing things they enjoy for people who want to see it. I fail to see how monetary incentive would reduce quality, if anything it seems like it drives creators to keep up the work. Also, please elaborate on 'fakes'.

Yes this is the other hand, and it's a good one.

But everyone is not like that.
For example, I was just looking up how much you can make from a youtube vid and apparently some guy recently made $100,000 for filming someone who was drugged up and woozy after going to the dentist.
That's of course an extreme example, but given how many crazy schemes people come up with to "get-rich-quick" I would be shocked if there aren't a bunch of people even right now trying to come up with ways to stage similar videos, instead of letting it happen naturally. (Hence the "lower quality" and "fake"s I mentioned)

I hear some streamers can make >$1,000 for playing video games for a day. I would not be surprised if some of those people would stop gaming altogether if they suddenly couldn't make money off of it, and yet they are the people with the biggest voice in the gaming community?

In an ideal world I would say sure, go ahead and pay the people who put out that content. But you can't do that without inviting unwanted company.

Take this guy for example
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hb8v2HvdMC0
All of his videos have the same theme, he literally expects to be able to play a game and win during a single seating and without having any prior knowledge or experience with the game.
Either he is totally new to gaming yet thinks his unexperienced opinion is something everyone needs to hear, or he intentionally does this sort of thing, unfairly criticizing games or giving unjustified bad reviews, just to generate interest because it earns him money.

But the people who really love to make that content will still do it anyway even if they aren't getting paid.

Quoting: HadBabitsOn the contrary, I think Let's Players and Youtube reviewers are strengthening a culture of criticism in gaming.

It sure is, and I would argue that that's exactly what is creating the problems of companies you listed here

Quoting: HadBabitsThe attention of gamers is no longer in the hands of the Games industry, which is presently engaging in misleading hype, pre-order culture, and walled-garden mindset. Instead a lot of it has gone to just regular gamers who put themselves on Youtube and aren't in the pockets of publishers.

The people putting out content have a lot of power to influence who buys what games, and it puts so much pressure on game companies that they have to resort to over polishing and over analyzing everything to minimize their bad reviews, rather than just focusing on what's fun.

Perhaps that's inevitable... But the point I'm trying to make is, if people are going to have that much power to influence players, it should belong to someone who loves gaming enough to make that content without having to be paid.

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This is many times the reason why I can't get a video up. I've practically had to let go of a lot of my comparison videos or benchmark videos of Valve games because they question my permission to use it.

I have even disclosed the Valve Video Policy to Youtube to prove that I am using it for educational and/or studying purposes, and when a soundtrack plays I either mute it or cut it out to be safe. You can find the policy here:http://www.valvesoftware.com/videopolicy.html

They respond by not responding. My videos get left in limbo, and after a month or so I just delete it.

In my most recent videos that I can't get up, are the ones trying to test out different Desktop Environments and seeing their performance difference for gaming. Quite a number of hours of my life gone down the drain, but I'm glad I could get some up in the end.

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Quoting: killxdenWith gog you have the additional install step but you still need an account to download it and a browser!
If you have downloaded it with steam, you can just go into the folder and start it without steam running. Want it on another pc? Just copy paste it. The game is yours, no client needed, that was my point. And you didn't get apparently, because for you steam is evil DRM stuff. But it is just a download client with additional functionality. And even if steam would go down for good, well they said they try to provide the games without the client. And even if that wouldn't work i still have a copy from my humble acc or a DVD. So I don't care about that :>

PS.: I really dislike Uplay and Origin and I don't use them.

How DID you get steam on your computer??? You would have to have this horrid thing called "a browser," installed by 99% of operating systems and/or installed a game from a disc you had to go to the store to get.

Secondly, try starting most games on steam without first starting it and tell me if the game doesn't start steam first or fail to run if steam is not allowed to open.

As to your claim that they would provide games without the client should they go down, if they were to go down, there would not be a prior notice. One day you will open up your steam client and you cannot connect. There is no obligation for them to give you your games should they go out of business and should they even provide the download services, how many people will try and download their games? You will not get access due to server crashes.

As to your last point, you still can't access your games since steam is down.

You don't have this problem with GOG, because the game is yours.

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Quoting: stssI've always disliked the idea of monetizing youtube videos in general.
The only thing it achieves is to generate content that is produced for the sole purpose of earning money, reducing the quality of things and even producing fakes.

On the other hand, it means creative people can make a living from doing things they enjoy for people who want to see it. I fail to see how monetary incentive would reduce quality, if anything it seems like it drives creators to keep up the work. Also, please elaborate on 'fakes'.

Quoting: stssand the idea of monetizing gaming videos is even worse. Encouraging people to play games and make content because they can earn money is just one example of a mindset that's ruining gaming.

On the contrary, I think Let's Players and Youtube reviewers are strengthening a culture of criticism in gaming. The attention of gamers is no longer in the hands of the Games industry, which is presently engaging in misleading hype, pre-order culture, and walled-garden mindset. Instead a lot of it has gone to just regular gamers who put themselves on Youtube and aren't in the pockets of publishers.

How is this ruining gaming?

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Quoting: a4644246I dont want to report bugs for stupid wrapers I want to find and report bugs for native multi-platform tools, so everyone will benefit, gamers, non-gamers and developers!!!

How does anybody but the developer and the game's players benefit from bug reports for closed source proprietary games?

Also, what value is there in calling people names? Being misinformed or unclear on something doesn't make a person an idiot. Your post is full of the sort of thing that is unhealthy about the way people have been approaching this situation. I'd suggest following some of Wil Wheaton's advice.

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Quoting: predator8bitKnowledge of wine? I have a bad feeling about this...

Why? Pick the Wine version a game is reported/tested to work best on, include that in your game package, and you'll have a release that uses Wine and yet will not likely break or have weird glitches...

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I've always disliked the idea of monetizing youtube videos in general.
The only thing it achieves is to generate content that is produced for the sole purpose of earning money, reducing the quality of things and even producing fakes.

and the idea of monetizing gaming videos is even worse. Encouraging people to play games and make content because they can earn money is just one example of a mindset that's ruining gaming.

I wish I could tell which youtube videos were monetized just by looking at the link so that I could never click one again.

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killx_den: See my explanation above why Steam is not just a "download client" and why Steam can be opposed even if some games can be manually backed up.

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You are overreacting.

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Quoting: HeimdallGo to the store, get the cd/dvd, bring it home and install it as many times as you like. Go to GOG.co, get the executable, install it as many times as you like. No difference. If the store closes down, you have the same problem as if GOG goes down, same thing if Steam goes down.

Except that with Steam, if they don't offer a game anymore, you lose access to your game. Someone cracks your password and gets you banned or steals your account? Lost access to your games, including the ones you have on your computer. You get banned, you now have hundreds of dollars in games now gone up in smoke. With GOG and physicals, you have control of the install once you buy the game and download it. You own the game. With Steam, you may as well be just renting it.

With Steam, you are forced to download their client, create an account and remain logged in, download the game, leave the client open and run the game. If you want to install it on other computers, you are forced to download their client again and have it running under your account in order to play. That is an added burden that you do not have with GOG/Physical installs (unless the physicals demand Steam/Origin/Uplay).

GOG distributes the self extracting installer that is independent of any client that you are not obligated to log in every time to install. You likewise don't have to go to the store you bought your game from every time you want to install it.

If a game is DRM free, don't buy it from Steam. I don't like monopolies and so many of the bigger developers are forcing their player base to use them (Steam) exclusively. It is like having to fill up your car's gas at only Chevron Gas stations because your car's manufacturer only wants you to use their service. Kind of like paying the mob off to do business.

With gog you have the additional install step but you still need an account to download it and a browser!
If you have downloaded it with steam, you can just go into the folder and start it without steam running. Want it on another pc? Just copy paste it. The game is yours, no client needed, that was my point. And you didn't get apparently, because for you steam is evil DRM stuff. But it is just a download client with additional functionality. And even if steam would go down for good, well they said they try to provide the games without the client. And even if that wouldn't work i still have a copy from my humble acc or a DVD. So I don't care about that :>

PS.: I really dislike Uplay and Origin and I don't use them.

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Quoting: GuestParadox… So it will be another complicated and expensive game without a demo and with a thousand DLCs, I suppose. Great.

Paradox didn't make this game...it's just being published by them.

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When I tested Half-Life 2 for DRM I was able to install it on a 2nd machine using a simple copy and paste operation ftom a DVD. Steam DIDN'T need to be running or online for the installation procedure. As far as the consequences of banning I don't think that bars you from access to download and/or install your games any more. They changed that functionality a while ago IIRC. However does games that are DTM do NOT need to authenticate at ANY point otherwise they wouldn't be DRM free. Others point to the EULAs and Dteam TOS but AFAIK even GOG has similar language.

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Quoting: berarmaPrices will be falling while the supply exceeds the demand.

http://jeff-vogel.blogspot.de/2014/05/the-indie-bubble-is-popping.html

He has a point but he forgot to take that the market is growing into the equation.

Also, I don't think "It's a stressful, miserable place, and they didn't like it. It just made it harder to get out of bed in the morning." was the reason Steam started to let every game in. They just follow the stream and wants to make as much money as possible as most other companies out there. :)

By the way, about the survey I mentioned earlier. Send me a PM if you're interested in participating.

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Turn down your mouse sensitivity Joe!

They didn't really show much in that video. If they were using the movement prototype put forth by Nick on the forum then there are some important movement mechanics which didn't get shown here.

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Prices will be falling while the supply exceeds the demand.

http://jeff-vogel.blogspot.de/2014/05/the-indie-bubble-is-popping.html

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Quoting: GuestI’m still avoiding Desura because they obviously don’t care the slightest bit about Linux users and their client crashes all the time.

This is why I have suggested to them to just remove the client link and stick to standalone downloads for Linux until they decide what to do for the client.

Desura are usually quite responsive.

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This was discussed at length before, but here are some key points again:

1. Steam has an official backup tool in the client. That tool creates some image on the disk. In order to restore that image one has to access the service. That's already DRM. DRM-free implies that once you purchased something, you can install and use it without any reliance on the service and any kind of 3rd parties who control what you do. That's not the same as simply authenticating the user during the purchase. We are talking about using the product after the purchase.

2. Some games distributed through Steam can be manually backed up, and de-facto #1 would work then without the service. That's correct, however I view the fact that Steam doesn't officially support that in their backup tool as DRM, and #2 as an unofficial exception to it.

3. Ryan is partially wrong about Steamworks. While it can be optional, for many games it's not (if they use network libraries from there for example). That's not DRM however, it's another problem, namely lock-in. Lock-in is bad on its own and developers should avoid using features which bind them to one distributor.

4. Avoiding Steam can result from all of the above. Even though some games on Steam can be de-facto DRM-free, general Valve's attitude towards this issue is not good. It's worse than the attitude of Humble Bundle which also offers mixed content. HB clearly marks games as DRM-free or not, and as well has an official backup option (simple tarball / package download). Supporting distributors which have a better DRM-free attitude makes sense if you want to vote with your wallet. That's the reason I use primarily GOG, less so HB and don't use Steam at all.

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Quoting: killxden

Quoting: Cloudwalker

Quoting: AnonymousFollowing that logic, if I have to go to a store and buy a game on a disc, then the act of going to the store is DRM. If Steam is DRM, or a website is DRM, then there are no truly DRM-free games, are there?

Do I have to run to the store everytime I want to install the game? No! If I want to install the game I need the steam client and have to be online. THAT IS DRM!

Where is the difference to gog.com then? You need to be online, you cant download any game without a browser and an account on their site. If their website is down you will be also fucked.
If you want a backup then just go into you steam folder, make a tarball or whatever and move it to your NAS/external HDD... done. Same stuff. That obviously only counts for the drm free games on steam ....

The differences to gog.com is that I dont need a client to install the game and that I dont have to be online to install the game.

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I like the idea of dynamically changing maps with live physics controlled object/blocks for cover.

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Favourite it right now! XD Tibia is one of the oldest games on linux, it have 17 years native in linux.

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Quoting: killxden

Quoting: Cloudwalker

Quoting: AnonymousFollowing that logic, if I have to go to a store and buy a game on a disc, then the act of going to the store is DRM. If Steam is DRM, or a website is DRM, then there are no truly DRM-free games, are there?

Do I have to run to the store everytime I want to install the game? No! If I want to install the game I need the steam client and have to be online. THAT IS DRM!

Where is the difference to gog.com then? You need to be online, you cant download any game without a browser and an account on their site. If their website is down you will be also fucked.
If you want a backup then just go into you steam folder, make a tarball or whatever and move it to your NAS/external HDD... done. Same stuff. That obviously only counts for the drm free games on steam ....

Go to the store, get the cd/dvd, bring it home and install it as many times as you like. Go to GOG.co, get the executable, install it as many times as you like. No difference. If the store closes down, you have the same problem as if GOG goes down, same thing if Steam goes down.

Except that with Steam, if they don't offer a game anymore, you lose access to your game. Someone cracks your password and gets you banned or steals your account? Lost access to your games, including the ones you have on your computer. You get banned, you now have hundreds of dollars in games now gone up in smoke. With GOG and physicals, you have control of the install once you buy the game and download it. You own the game. With Steam, you may as well be just renting it.

With Steam, you are forced to download their client, create an account and remain logged in, download the game, leave the client open and run the game. If you want to install it on other computers, you are forced to download their client again and have it running under your account in order to play. That is an added burden that you do not have with GOG/Physical installs (unless the physicals demand Steam/Origin/Uplay).

GOG distributes the self extracting installer that is independent of any client that you are not obligated to log in every time to install. You likewise don't have to go to the store you bought your game from every time you want to install it.

If a game is DRM free, don't buy it from Steam. I don't like monopolies and so many of the bigger developers are forcing their player base to use them (Steam) exclusively. It is like having to fill up your car's gas at only Chevron Gas stations because your car's manufacturer only wants you to use their service. Kind of like paying the mob off to do business.

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Tibia ROX! it have linux client, just go to website click on ACCOUNT -> download client! :D

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It is DRM, lose your password & see how many of those steam games will run.

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Quoting: GuestParadox… So it will be another complicated and expensive game without a demo and with a thousand DLCs, I suppose. Great.

The DLCs are all optional and they improve the game without DLC's by using money from the DLC's that other people buy.

I for one buy everything from Paradox as thanks for their excellent Linux support, even EU4 got a new launcher interface today from the free patch amongst a host of other bits.

Just hope they do the same for CK2 next time.

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Quoting: Cloudwalker

Quoting: AnonymousFollowing that logic, if I have to go to a store and buy a game on a disc, then the act of going to the store is DRM. If Steam is DRM, or a website is DRM, then there are no truly DRM-free games, are there?

Do I have to run to the store everytime I want to install the game? No! If I want to install the game I need the steam client and have to be online. THAT IS DRM!

Where is the difference to gog.com then? You need to be online, you cant download any game without a browser and an account on their site. If their website is down you will be also fucked.
If you want a backup then just go into you steam folder, make a tarball or whatever and move it to your NAS/external HDD... done. Same stuff. That obviously only counts for the drm free games on steam ....

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Quoting: GuestParadox… So it will be another complicated and expensive game without a demo and with a thousand DLCs, I suppose. Great.

Warlock 2 is much like the first one, not very "complicated" as far as strategy games go and definitely a lot less so than Paradox grand strategy titles.

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Port by its definition is native code, not WINE, eON and DOsBOX. If your code is portable you take source-code and compile it into PE for Windows and ELF for Linux. If your code is not portable you need to edit it or have two different source-codes for each platform. So please STOP calling wine, eON and DosBOX packages PORTS because you are an IDIOT! There is only one case where you can use WINE and DOSBox ant it is if you dont have source-code.

The problem is that developers use non-portable technology. Solution to that problem is to use portable technology.

QuoteIf the game is using eON, Wine, DosBox, and it works for you, why does it matter?

I want them to use native technology so native techonlogy will be more developed. When they use wrapers ony wrapers gets developed. I dont want to report bugs for stupid wrapers I want to find and report bugs for native multi-platform tools, so everyone will benefit, gamers, non-gamers and developers!!! In your stupid case only developers benefit and gamers from non-primary platform get inferior product.

If you think that for the future of FLOSS is good that we have wraped stuff you dont understand how FLOSS works and its philosophy and in that case please STFU!!!

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Steamworks isn't DRM. It's a fantastic, multi-faceted extension to games that offer great benefits for users of it.

Steam is a store. They sell games. It's cheap and works extremely well.

Steam is also DRM. They manage our rights, digitally. We have the rights they and the developers choose to give us. Nothing more, nothing less. Unless we want to violate their ToS and risk our accounts being terminated if we get caught. If we do we lose everything we've bought, or rather "licensed for an unspecified amount of time".

A bladed instrument isn't automatically a weapon. Surgeons save lives with scalpels every single day. I use a knife to eat my dinner. Steam is a highly versatile bladed instrument, it is up to the developers how they want to wield it. Most misuse it. I have a tendency not to walk into a room if I know it'll be filled with people brandishing knives. Doesn't matter if there's one or two who are carving the finest of sculptures with theirs.

Or at least, I don't go into a room like that any more. I used to. 184 times to be exact. In my defence I was pushed into the room on the majority of those occasions after buying a boxed copy in an entirely different house and told I needed to go into the aforementioned room to use my copy at all. This is where the "knife to the throat" analogy should have been typed.

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