Quoting: BlackBloodRumThey may be better off embracing the flatpak more closely, as it'll make it easier to port between different distributions.

I don't know what the Steam client's codebase looks like, but all I can see with the Steam Flatpak manifest is black magic: https://github.com/flathub/com.valvesoftware.Steam

What an insane amount of work for a Flatpak package.

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Quoting: Jarmer

Quoting: pleasereadthemanualCOSMIC is a great desktop. I ran it as my main desktop for a few weeks. I'd love to try it again when it's stable and has more features like support for graphics tablets and integrated input methods :)

I'm very much looking forward to the unofficial spin the actual cosmic devs will put out soon. Last I heard it was planned for spring '25.

Is this the spin for Fedora or openSUSE?

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It really is the end of an era when most people aren't thinking, "I really hope they do a Linux version!" but instead, "I really hope they don't actively block Linux users who play the game through Wine, Android emulation or VFIO GPU passthrough!"

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Quoting: Purple Library GuyMy needs are fairly simple, so I ended up using Mate.

I'm not a fan of XFCE (too confusing to me :P), but I've never tried MATE. It seems like a good choice! Not something I'd choose myself, but I likely wouldn't be overly unhappy with it.

I've tried Cinnamon and while it's fine and something I'd recommend to users coming from Windows (I can't recommend KDE because of its complexity and GNOME is too different), I don't like it. I'm not a fan of the design. It works well enough, I think, though I've only tried it in a VM.

I'm happy to accept the defaults of most desktop environments. I usually only end up changing the keybindings and a few other small things. As long as it has 10 workspaces, I can deal.

For that reason, I also like tiling window managers. I've tried Sway and like it, but I ultimately decided it was too much work and it lacked features I needed. COSMIC is not nearly as much work but still lacks features at the moment. I'm pretty happy on GNOME (for the exact reasons you dislike it :P), but I may end up on COSMIC eventually.

Or back to KDE. Who knows? Right now, only GNOME and KDE have all the features I want.

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Quoting: fagnerln

Quoting: pleasereadthemanualI tried out KDE for a while due to a missing feature on GNOME, but KDE then broke a similar feature, so I went back to GNOME.

Yeah, that's exactly my experience. I really like the Gnome workflow, but because of disliking some of the dev's attitudes/opinions, and the fact that there's a lot of people hyping KDE (and now companies like Valve funding it), I keep an eye on every KDE release, but it's always the same: I try it, it breaks, I regret.

Maybe it's a "me" issue, but even on Windows, if I use it a bit, I find some bugs, even doing nothing. Gnome is just fine.

I just hope that Fedora Cosmic become a fantastic distro.

I really like GNOME, but it has a few deficiencies that are unlikely to be fixed for a very long time. I like KDE too, but the UX is not as good. In some places it's much better, but overall it's not as well-constructed. Both have bugs.

COSMIC is a great desktop. I ran it as my main desktop for a few weeks. I'd love to try it again when it's stable and has more features like support for graphics tablets and integrated input methods :)

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Quoting: no_information_here

Quoting: pleasereadthemanualThere are quite a lot of them: https://apps.kde.org

I don't know which ones Fedora's KDE SIG thinks are core.

Including all of those as core apps would be lunacy. What I was implying was that only a skeleton number of them is required to make a perfectly usable desktop OS.

I have been glad to see a trend that some Linux distros install fewer things by default and leave more choices up to the user.

This page has a list of applications that are likely in Fedora KDE's core: https://fedoraproject.org/spins/kde/

I think the more apps installed, the better, generally. It's beneficial to new users to not need to search for and install applications.

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Quoting: hell0

Quoting: pleasereadthemanualA member of the Quality Assurance team for instance is concerned about being able to assure the quality of KDE:

QuoteFor KDE, this would be extra 51 apps! Compare the scope. I believe it's impossible for us to have the same quality bar here. And even if we had a huge surge of volunteers to test those regularly, it would just mean that we'd hardly ever release, because the likelihood of discovering a broken functionality in 73 apps (22+51) is much higher than in 22 apps. Workstation is quite lean on pre-installed apps, and yet we already struggle with this, and many people get irked by the whole compose being blocked on a bug in gnome-clocks/gnome-contacts/gnome-calendar/etc.

And concluding:

QuoteEither the quality requirements won't be the same, or we need to lower the Workstation one and meet somewhere in the middle for both.

Seems solid at first but the entire argument hinges on the fact all "apps" are of equal complexity and quality.

Either way, pretty happy about the news. Right when I was thinking of giving KDE a spin after fixing gnome's search tracker for the umpteenth time.

I'm sure they've managed to figure it out as they've since approved the change.

I tried out KDE for a while due to a missing feature on GNOME, but KDE then broke a similar feature, so I went back to GNOME. I agree that presenting two options will lead to a lot of confusion for users. But Fedora is already a distribution that leads to a lot of confusion with the codec limitations, so this is paltry in comparison. I'm interested to see how they present KDE.

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Quoting: no_information_here

Quoting: pleasereadthemanualA member of the Quality Assurance team for instance is concerned about being able to assure the quality of KDE:

QuoteFor KDE, this would be extra 51 apps! Compare the scope. I believe it's impossible for us to have the same quality bar here. And even if we had a huge surge of volunteers to test those regularly, it would just mean that we'd hardly ever release, because the likelihood of discovering a broken functionality in 73 apps (22+51) is much higher than in 22 apps. Workstation is quite lean on pre-installed apps, and yet we already struggle with this, and many people get irked by the whole compose being blocked on a bug in gnome-clocks/gnome-contacts/gnome-calendar/etc.

Thanks for the quote. I am not a Fedora user -- what do they mean by "apps" here? Other than the core plasma bits (settings, kwallet, etc.) the only "KDE apps" I have installed on my Neon system are Okular, Dolphin, and Gwenview.

Edit: I forgot Kate.

There are quite a lot of them: https://apps.kde.org

I don't know which ones Fedora's KDE SIG thinks are core.

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Quoting: LanzI see this as Fedora admitting that Gnome is a bit stalled at the moment.

There are a lot of Fedora users and KDE maintainers pushing for KDE to be better represented. Fedora's KDE spin (now Edition) has a lot more maintainers than it had in the past, so it's as well maintained as Fedora Workstation (GNOME), as compared to other spins like i3, Sway, and XFCE.

This isn't the singular opinion of "The Fedora Project" but like all FESCO decisions, a community of disparate people coming together to discuss this. Some don't have any opinion on KDE because they've never used it. The KDE and GNOME people are completely different aside from Neal Gompa. A quote from the issue tracker:

Quote(Honestly, the only thing we have in common right now is Neal imo, otherwise we don'T really communicate as-is)

A member of the Quality Assurance team for instance is concerned about being able to assure the quality of KDE:

QuoteFor KDE, this would be extra 51 apps! Compare the scope. I believe it's impossible for us to have the same quality bar here. And even if we had a huge surge of volunteers to test those regularly, it would just mean that we'd hardly ever release, because the likelihood of discovering a broken functionality in 73 apps (22+51) is much higher than in 22 apps. Workstation is quite lean on pre-installed apps, and yet we already struggle with this, and many people get irked by the whole compose being blocked on a bug in gnome-clocks/gnome-contacts/gnome-calendar/etc.

And concluding:

QuoteEither the quality requirements won't be the same, or we need to lower the Workstation one and meet somewhere in the middle for both.

This discussion has been going on for several months and it's taken this long because the KDE SIG are the ones interested in becoming an Edition, while the GNOME people mostly don't have an opinion. There were a lot of objections in the beginning about how confusing it would be to have two Editions listed equally. It was hard to see how it could work. Especially because no one wanted to get rid of GNOME because Fedora has a great relationship with GNOME.

So while it is an acknowledgement of how good a job the KDE SIG is doing at maintaining the KDE spin (despite some decisions not being in line with upstream like dropping X11 packages), this says little about what Fedora thinks of GNOME.

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Quote"Manjaro Data Donor", which they plan to have as opt-out and not opt-in.

I think this is fine if they give you an undismissable prompt telling you they're going to do it and letting you opt out.

QuoteI know telemetry is a contentious subject, but we need at least some data about how Manjaro is being used by so many people around the world in order to show that the project has a future and also to plan for that future.

I sympathise with the plight (even though it's Manjaro's plight), but I can't reconcile the morality of opt-out telemetry. If you do opt-out telemetry, you believe you are entitled to your user's data. Is there any scenario where that isn't true?

Another way of saying the same thing is:

QuoteIf we do opt-out telemetry, we'll snag a high percentage of people who don't even realize we're collecting data on them who would otherwise not consent to having their data collected if we made it opt-in. But this data is really important for us; more important than your consent.

I can't reconcile it.

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