Quoting: Shmerl

Quoting: elmapulwtf?
Ray tracing is the holygrail of computer graphics.
maybe Rtx, their dedicated cores, may be gimick, but Ray tracing?

We aren't talking about ray tracing, we are talking about Nvidia's implementation. See my post above. What they did it not a miracle, it's a gimmick. Once someone will make serious real time ray tracing on commodity hardware, you can call it a miracle. Nvidia did nothing of the sort.

if its more affordable than an super computer, or can do it under 16ms, it is an miracle, dont matter if it need an asyc to do it or not.

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Quoting: Guest

Quoting: elmapul

Quoting: Shmerl

Quoting: EikeIt's just a matter of time.

That said, I avoided buying a GTX 2000, because at the moment, it feels more like an expensive gimmick.

It is a gimmick. More of a marketing tool than a really useful feature. To achieve good quality real time ray tracing, you need really powerful hardware. And one that can be fit in a single GPU gives at best some minor enhancement to the lighting, and as I said above, it naturally comes at the cost of everything else.

wtf?
Ray tracing is the holygrail of computer graphics.
maybe Rtx, their dedicated cores, may be gimick, but Ray tracing?
that is simply the reason why the computer graphics industry had to use countless other gimmicks, because they didnt had real time ray trace, what nvidia did was an miracle that was later followed by others, sure, its not as good as rendering the entire frame, the same way that eevee (on blender) is not as good as cycles, but its close enough.

rendering in 16ms what usually take hours in a much better machine is not an small deal, sure its not as good as, but its impressive nonetheless.

one thing that i hate in gamers in general is how clueless they are, i dont give a fuck about 4k, raytracing is an serious technology, 4k is just a gimmick, but when they realizes that they would have to give up on 4k to play with raytracing, what they did? trash talked the technology, and that is the reason why it didnt sell as it should.
sure, there are other factors too, like games that arent really optimized for it, but seem the reception that this technology had, just disgusts me.

I always love it when clueless people call others clueless.... It is funny.

No, Nvidia performed no such "miracle". Nvidia just caught up with AMD's hardware architecture after many years. Nvidia's gpus for the better part of this decade were lagging behind in technology. They lacked async compute (VERY important and if games actually utilized it we would be seeing superior games), they lacked enough shading power and relied on geometry and brute force, they overtesselated everything just to win in benchmarks etc.

RTX is just some CUDA shaders that perform raytracing effects. That is why Nvidia after some months enabled the 1000 series to have RTX too.... It was just software. And guess what, architecturally VEGA and NAVI from AMD could run RTX just as efficiently, if Nvidia allowed their shaders to be translated to AMD hardware legally.... Oops, i guess now they did.

4K is not a "gimmick". Alongside HDR, they can enhance graphical fidelity considerably. They do cost a lot of resources. But if i had the choice between 4K/HDR and RTX on 1080p, i would pick 4K, every single time. Why? Because most effects RTX performs can be done with traditional techniques and be quite good looking, while 4K and HDR color literally upgrade the detail level of the whole screen. so yeah, RTX is a gimmick.

first off, i dont know about the hardware details, nvidia may lag behind in this front, but from an software point of view, ray tracing in real time is impressive (even more if they did in on their hardware that is as bad as you described)
it dont matter if it was an hardware inovation, or software inovation, its impressive in any case!

saying "It was just software" ,"Its just a shader", donot explain how they could make such a shader, if it was so easy, people would have figured it out before.

"if Nvidia allowed their shaders to be translated to AMD hardware legally.... Oops, i guess now they did."
the fact that nvidia hold the patent for that proves that they did it first.
why didnt amd did it before? or any game developer? because it isnt easy to do.


and second, 4k is not an guarantee of quality.
if i want to make an 4k game, i can just make an game with atari graphics and it will run on an ps3, an ps2, maybe even an n64 (if you ignore that those platforms dont have the proper output capabilities)

the issue with 4k is that you are giving up on something else to increase the resolution.
nowadays, you can run old games in high resolution on some emulators, pick an n64 game in 4k vs an movie in full HD, what have better graphics?
until games looks as good as movies (with fur and etc) i dont see the reason to increase the resolution, fullHD is good enough, 4k is bullshit, i rather have the double the poly count than double the resolution. (quadruple if you count x and y)


"Because most effects RTX performs can be done with traditional techniques and be quite good looking,"
that is why ray tracing is such a revolution, because now developers dont have to use those techiniques (those gimicks), they can just focus on making the game.
instead of baking the lights then making the objects inmovable so you cant break the illusion that the shadows are real, you just simulate light.
baking shadows is a gimmick.

in the current gen games, its hard to show the true advantage, because games were designed with that limitation into account, but now developers can get rid of then.

this video explain the issue better than i can:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lyfTPG-dwOE

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Quoting: Shmerl

Quoting: elmapulanother thing to consider is that google already tried to support wine in the past, looks like they came to the conclusion that it was not worth it.

When was it exactly and do you have some sources about how it failed?

Quoting: elmapulif wine was an solution, they wouldnt have to stream anything.

Streaming vs local is completely orthogonal to Wine vs native. You can have all combinations.

i cant remember if it was that, or something else:
https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2008/02/google-intoxicates-linux-users-with-wine-improvements/
but i heard google was helping years ago, and since then, never heard it again.

as for it failed, well, valve is the one doing proton and stuff, while google gave up on this strategy to focus on streaming...

google tried to support wine, webGL, webgl2, web assembly, and while those had an moderate sucess, gaming and many professional softwares are still windows exclusives, so instead of investing in solutions like wine to make more games run on chromeOS or try to expand the chromeOS marketshare litle by little, they are trying to sell the idea that on the cloud, developers can sell games to up to 2 billions of persons (wich is much easier to sell than chromeOS that has an little market that didnt move too much and the seling point of then is the low price.
it seems to be easier to make the games run on cloud then stream then to chromebooks to sell more chromeOS devices than make then run on chromeOS while try to get marketshare for it at the same time...

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Quoting: Liam Dawe

Quoting: elmapulhonestly, this thing is worse than clickteam fusion was 20 years ago, back when it was called multimedia fusion.
not to mention construct 3...

You're talking about entirely professionally made software, from teams that have been building such game engines and editors for a very long time. It's incredibly unfair to compare them together in such a way and it's WAY more powerful than Clickteam stuff from 20 years ago (hello, I used it all TGF/MMF everything) that's a big overstatement.

Speaking from my own experience, GDevelop is a vast improvement to what it was a year or so ago. They are doing good work and this last year has seen quick progression on it.

Quoting: elmapulwell, its getting there, but trying to make any serious game on it, right now, would be an waste of time.

Well, Hyperspace Dogfights was made with it and that game is seriously cool.

Sounds like you could be giving this feedback to them. Have you opened any tickets with them on GitHub or anywhere else? If they don't know about issues stopping people, they can't look to solve them.

You're talking about entirely professionally made software, from teams that have been building such game engines and editors for a very long time.
construct? the last time i checked their team was about 2 persons, oh, and it was 3 when it was open source, then they gave up on not receiving much help from thirdy parties nor receiving money and restarted as closed source.
i dont know about the size of the team from clickteam, but that dont change the fact:
if you want to make an sucessful game, an game to compete on the market, or just to learn, those tools are better.

as for the issue, i cant download much stuff now since my HDD broken and i'm on a live cd, but their UI on the event editor was ridiculous big...

about the game, it looks good.

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Quoting: Iperpido

Quoting: elmapul

Quoting: Liam Dawe

Quoting: IperpidoYes, they rolled out 4k for the web... but on Windows only.
On Mac Os, there's no native VP9 support, but i can't understand why on Linux it's still locked to 1080p

Well there's the Stadia+ extension, which can allow you to force a resolution like 4K. The reason they don't by default, is likely as no current browser (even Firefox) has proper GPU video acceleration on Linux right now.

so, no HDR and no 4k? shit
i dont care about 4k to be honnest, but many people do, and not having HDR is an big issue for me, at least in the games that support it...

No, i think HDR works on full hd too. And Stadia supports it.

you dont get the issue, HDR dont works on linux, that is why krita didnt have support for HDR on linux.

well, i probably will play on my chromecast anyway, there is no reason to ocupy the computer and tv when i can ocupy just one, and an big screen is a must have...

but, other people do care about HDR and 4k...

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Quoting: Liam Dawe

Quoting: Iperpido

Quoting: Liam Dawe

Quoting: IperpidoYes, they rolled out 4k for the web... but on Windows only.
On Mac Os, there's no native VP9 support, but i can't understand why on Linux it's still locked to 1080p

Well there's the Stadia+ extension, which can allow you to force a resolution like 4K. The reason they don't by default, is likely as no current browser (even Firefox) has proper GPU video acceleration on Linux right now.

Well, i can confirm Stadia+ is actually working well on Linux too.
My other problem is that i have a 2k monitor, not fuill 4k. on windows i can use AMD's VSR, but on linux is harder.

I managed to do that using xrandr:
xrandr --listmonitors
hdmiOutput=$?
xrandr --output DisplayPort-$hdmiOutput --mode 2560x1440 --panning 3840x2160 --scale 1.5x1.5

(change DisplayPort to HDMI if you are using HDMI, of course)

Stadia+ is open source too, so as Stadia evolves people can hack away at that too which is quite cool. Shame it's needed for 4K right now, but eventually when browsers catch up on Linux for GPU accel it won't be needed.

stadia is open source? what? where is the source code??

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Quoting: Iperpido

Quoting: elmapuli hate to say that but...
geforce now pretty much killed stadia.
you simply can acess all your windows games on it.

dont get me wrong, i'm not saying i would use it, but the only reason to not use would be, because you are an linux fanboy...

i mean, you can buy your game on any store (steam, uplay, origin, epic store, gog, itch.io, etc) and stream it, you can get the free games that those stores distribute and stream it, or play it offline on your local machine.
why would any one purchase then on stadia instead?

i know its too soon to say that, but yeah, nvidia pretty much killed it, and looks like microsoft monopoly will continue for an foreseable future, even worse, they will gain marketshare at the cloud this time...

Geforce Now has no 4k, and no Linux support.

the issue is, stadia cant live by selling games just for us, linux users.
and if the service is not sustainable, then google will give up on it.
currently, its like the first xbox, where microsoft lost money for years before they could make any profit, but if this dont change, soon or later they will give up.

geforce now not supporting linux, and stadia not being able to compete will kill our only chance of growing our marketshare on the desktop and end this cycle of "chicken and egg" problem.
but now that nvidia did this move, i dont have an clue on how google will compete, that is, if he can compete.

hell, i cant wait for stadia to be avaliable at my country, but the way things are right now, i think this day will never come...

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"Pricing starts at $699 for the base model with 8GB RAM and a 250GB SSD. Could be a great little indie gaming and streaming machine."

er... nope, at this price i can buy an ps4, switch or xbox one...

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honestly...
i think we are doomed, like, hardware? really?
dont get me wrong, i have asked for new keys for years, so i can create custom shortcuts and try to adapt my workflow for it.
the issue is:
we need more inovations in softwares, we will gain more productivity with better software...

its hard to make money with open source, so many distro makers chose to sell it togheter with an hardware, because its easier to convince people to buy an physical object that they cant get for free than donate to an project.

i can see the trend here, in the past, i thought that an free game with opitinal payments for cosmetics were the best business model for consumers, but now, many companies focus more on cosmetics than the game itself.

i think they should invest more money in projects like blender and godot, but they arent paid to be impartial, so making an system designed to be fast travelled with their own keyboard can make people get so used to this workflow that they will not want to use anything else, or better saying, maybe they will be able too...

i guess an proposal like the endless OS one is much better, sure, they make custom hardware, but they make an system that comes with a lot of softwares and documentation so you can use the computer offline in areas where people have no acess to the internet, without much prejudice, you dont have internet acess and cant find an video tutorial? this OS comes preloaded with it. (or something like that)
that is an real solution that i see solving real problems.

the system76 aproach here is... well, i dont like the trend...

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Quoting: Liam Dawe

Quoting: IperpidoYes, they rolled out 4k for the web... but on Windows only.
On Mac Os, there's no native VP9 support, but i can't understand why on Linux it's still locked to 1080p

Well there's the Stadia+ extension, which can allow you to force a resolution like 4K. The reason they don't by default, is likely as no current browser (even Firefox) has proper GPU video acceleration on Linux right now.

so, no HDR and no 4k? shit
i dont care about 4k to be honnest, but many people do, and not having HDR is an big issue for me, at least in the games that support it...

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