Quoting: Purple Library Guy

Quoting: slaapliedje

Quoting: whizse

Quoting: slaapliedje

Quoting: whizseYeah yeah lightning... What about their willy physics!?

I'm not even interested in a game without willy physics!

(This is sort of an inside joke. Back in the day, at the beginning of the 3d acceleration age, I had gotten a Voodoo 1 card (Pure3d, had 6mb of ram instead of the typical 4, because I knew how to research hardware!). Friend of mine made a comment of 'I don't care about the graphics, as long as the game is fun.' Then I showed him how Unreal looked on 3Dfx. It was mind blowing back then. He changed his tune after that and said that he wouldn't play a game unless it looked amazing... strange dude.)

Sounds like your friend was ahead of the curve!

Oh man, the 6mb card. All I had was the 4mb. Now I'm gonna question all my life choices...

Haha, it was much like anything, though. If everyone didn't have 6mb of ram, then developers only developed for 4mb of ram... One of the reasons so many games on the Atari ST stunk... devs would code for 512kb, so that all of those Atari 520ST owners wouldn't cry foul!

I remember playing these text adventure games that were written to fit very exactly into 16k of ram.

Ah, I miss text adventures. Zork was epic. Speaking of amazing things, have you ever seen that 96kb FPS demo? That was nuts!

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Quoting: ShmerlIf anyone still asks "why Wayland instead of X", revisit this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GWQh_DmDLKQ

Ha, I point out a few special use cases where Wayland doesn't work for me and some people (not you, you're sane) lose their shit.

There definitely are things that work better in it, like gestures seem to be better supported. I want to like Wayland, I like new things. It's just I keep running into very specific issues with it. One other thing that I don't think will ever be fixed is the ability to restart the Gnome Shell via Alt+F2 and R. Not sure of the technical reasons why, but I think it's because of how mutter is written?

One thing I do find amusing, if you run Debian Sid, and have an nvidia card, the Wayland sessions aren't available (at least without doing some shenanigans). It used to be easily added with just changing a line in the /etc/gdm3/gdm.conf. That hasn't seemed to work lately (though now I've switched to an AMD card in my main desktop).

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Quoting: ShmerlPoint of Debian is a moot thing. A lot of people use Sid or testing for desktop purposes. You wouldn't want to use Debian stable for that purpose at all.

But, it's not a newbie friendly distro to use. I'd appreciate Debian testing becoming more officially desktop targeted distro (than Sid). But Debian developers never had enough resources or desire to do that.

My opinion on this is very skewed, as I find Debian extremely easy to set up and get going (and especially with the inclusion now of the firmware repo). Then again, I've been using it for so long, it's about as easy to install for me as breathing. Mind you, I'm comparing that to Utah weather, which very often is labeled as 'not safe for old people to be outside.'

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Quoting: japzone

Quoting: slaapliedjeThat said, anyone remember the Atari Lynx (and I think the Game Boy supported this too) where you could connect a cable and play multiplayer... I wonder how feasible that'd be to do with two Steam Decks...

Definitely possible using Ethernet/Wifi and a game that supports direct IP multiplayer, or hosting a local server. But it definitely wouldn't be a plug-and-play setup.

I found this; now to find time to actually test this out!
https://usercomp.com/news/1044609/emulating-ethernet-between-usb-c-ports-in-linux

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Quoting: whizse

Quoting: slaapliedje

Quoting: whizseYeah yeah lightning... What about their willy physics!?

I'm not even interested in a game without willy physics!

(This is sort of an inside joke. Back in the day, at the beginning of the 3d acceleration age, I had gotten a Voodoo 1 card (Pure3d, had 6mb of ram instead of the typical 4, because I knew how to research hardware!). Friend of mine made a comment of 'I don't care about the graphics, as long as the game is fun.' Then I showed him how Unreal looked on 3Dfx. It was mind blowing back then. He changed his tune after that and said that he wouldn't play a game unless it looked amazing... strange dude.)

Sounds like your friend was ahead of the curve!

Oh man, the 6mb card. All I had was the 4mb. Now I'm gonna question all my life choices...

Haha, it was much like anything, though. If everyone didn't have 6mb of ram, then developers only developed for 4mb of ram... One of the reasons so many games on the Atari ST stunk... devs would code for 512kb, so that all of those Atari 520ST owners wouldn't cry foul!

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Quoting: Adutchman

Quoting: slaapliedje

Quoting: tohur

Quoting: reaperx7I love how Red Hat loves to push (force) people to buggy and incomplete software touting it as "stable" when the truth is far from reality.

Wayland is nice, but the fact that every compositor does everything inconsistent with each other, and often conflicts with how Xorg/XWayland does things, with pretty much everything the original developers intend, pretty much leave me saying "this isn't a good idea".

Honestly, nothing was wrong with Xorg, in my opinion. It works as intended like Windows GDI+. Yes there were some security flaws, but really, what was wrong with Xorg? I honestly see Wayland as a solution in search of a problem, not the other way around. If there was consistency with the compositors this wouldn't be a problem, but Plasma has their own problems, Gnome wants to be the rebellious child, Enlightenment is their own thing, Weston is sitting in the corner rocking back and forth thinking its a tea pot, and God knows what else the rest are doing running around the house aimlessly, but nothing is consistent while Xorg is sitting at the table, well behaved and saying "Oh so I'm not that important anymore? Have fun with the miscreants!" as it sits it's tea and reads the newspaper.

If you think Xorg is well "behaved" and not an issue you do not live in reality.. xorg is a utter mess and needs to go. frankly since swapping to Plasma wayland my PC performs much better

In my mind, the only thing Xorg needed fixing on was a better / more supported way to not run as root. Outside of that, they did all the work to make it modular during the development from XFree86. The problem is that people don't like maintaining old stuff, and want to play with new toys. That's all Wayland is. It'll be a new toy, until it isn't, then someone else will declare that it's crap and no one should be using it and then we'll be in the exact same boat as before...

There are definitely things that Wayland does okay, but nothing they do that is special over X11, and end up still needing compatibility layer to X11...

Performance wise, I notice very little difference between Xorg / Wayland. Like somethings feel a little smoother, other things feel slower. I definitely notice things just not working right in Wayland though. Weirdly, I had an issue where the Synology Drive app didn't want to work in Xorg, but would in Wayland... after a reboot, it was fine though.

I think that isn't true. The reason we need something new is simple: Xorg was released in 2004. Pretty much everything is different now and with software, once it starts doing things that weren't concievable when it was designed, things start falling apart. "Modularity" isn't a checkbox, it is a relative thing. What a module was supposed to be was also thought up in 2004, so that is also inadequate. In 204, screens were 480p, screensharing did not exist, security was not really a designconsideration, VR was still science fiction and Linux desktop Linux was still very obscure. Stating that creating something new was just because people wanted something new is not really fair IMO.

Haha, in 2004? Monitors (which is why they were always more expensive than TVs) were definitely not 480p. I had a 1600x1200@85 monitor by then. Still have that same screen.

The whole point of it becoming modular was that they could update things as needed, without having to go through a ton of code to fix simple bugs. It was supposed to be to 'future proof' Xorg. It brought us such awesome things as the compositing that everyone is so fond of these days, so we could have wobbly windows, Compiz, etc. Screen sharing is possible in Xorg. Isn't that one of the things that is broken in Wayland? VR works... etc.

Only thing really is the security.

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Quoting: tohur

Quoting: ShmerlPoint of Debian is a moot thing. A lot of people use Sid or testing for desktop purposes. You wouldn't want to use Debian stable for that purpose at all.

But, it's not an newbie friendly distro to use.

And those people understand the risks.. this guy seems to not care or ignore those risk when sitting here complaining about things (wayland) being broken. and let alone the fact hes using GNOME which is about the worst wayland implementation there is

I didn't say wayland was broken, I said there are still issues with it vs Xorg. Big difference. There are very specific use cases where it doesn't work as it's intended.

Quoting: ShmerlI'd agree about Gnome not being the best option. I haven't followed Gnome progress in a while, but someone told me it doesn't even have minimizing windows concept now. Stuff like CSD and such also never made a lot of sense to me.

You can minimize windows just fine in Gnome.

I also have an extension that gives me wobbly windows, so it definitely feels just as smooth as KDE does. This also could be why I see no performance difference between Xorg and Wayland.

Quoting: tohur

Quoting: ShmerlI'd agree about Gnome not being the best option. I haven't followed Gnome progress in a while, but someone told me it doesn't even have minimizing windows concept now. Stuff like CSD and such also never made a lot of sense to me.

Yea Wayland on GNOME lacks alot and is crazy they are talking about getting rid of the Xorg session LMAO.. And good luck gaming on GNOME wayland as its input lag is terrible since Vsync can not be turned off in GNOME wayland like we can turn it off on Plasma .. Yea CSDs are stupid as heck lol.

Why would you turn off Vsync, also, pretty sure Gnome got to Wayland support long before KDE. Which means they're wanting to drop Xorg support sooner. Also, Gnome is pretty much developed by Redhat at this point... so them wanting to drop Xorg support for RHEL 10 and Gnome wanting to do the same makes a whole lot of sense... if you think Wayland is ready (which I don't think it is).

Quoting: Adutchman

Quoting: slaapliedje

Quoting: tohur

Quoting: reaperx7I love how Red Hat loves to push (force) people to buggy and incomplete software touting it as "stable" when the truth is far from reality.

Wayland is nice, but the fact that every compositor does everything inconsistent with each other, and often conflicts with how Xorg/XWayland does things, with pretty much everything the original developers intend, pretty much leave me saying "this isn't a good idea".

Honestly, nothing was wrong with Xorg, in my opinion. It works as intended like Windows GDI+. Yes there were some security flaws, but really, what was wrong with Xorg? I honestly see Wayland as a solution in search of a problem, not the other way around. If there was consistency with the compositors this wouldn't be a problem, but Plasma has their own problems, Gnome wants to be the rebellious child, Enlightenment is their own thing, Weston is sitting in the corner rocking back and forth thinking its a tea pot, and God knows what else the rest are doing running around the house aimlessly, but nothing is consistent while Xorg is sitting at the table, well behaved and saying "Oh so I'm not that important anymore? Have fun with the miscreants!" as it sits it's tea and reads the newspaper.

If you think Xorg is well "behaved" and not an issue you do not live in reality.. xorg is a utter mess and needs to go. frankly since swapping to Plasma wayland my PC performs much better

In my mind, the only thing Xorg needed fixing on was a better / more supported way to not run as root. Outside of that, they did all the work to make it modular during the development from XFree86. The problem is that people don't like maintaining old stuff, and want to play with new toys. That's all Wayland is. It'll be a new toy, until it isn't, then someone else will declare that it's crap and no one should be using it and then we'll be in the exact same boat as before...

There are definitely things that Wayland does okay, but nothing they do that is special over X11, and end up still needing compatibility layer to X11...

Performance wise, I notice very little difference between Xorg / Wayland. Like somethings feel a little smoother, other things feel slower. I definitely notice things just not working right in Wayland though. Weirdly, I had an issue where the Synology Drive app didn't want to work in Xorg, but would in Wayland... after a reboot, it was fine though.

I think that isn't true. The reason we need something new is simple: Xorg was released in 2004. Pretty much everything is different now and with software, once it starts doing things that weren't concievable when it was designed, things start falling apart. "Modularity" isn't a checkbox, it is a relative thing. What a module was supposed to be was also thought up in 2004, so that is also inadequate. In 204, screens were 480p, screensharing did not exist, security was not really a designconsideration, VR was still science fiction and Linux desktop Linux was still very obscure. Stating that creating something new was just because people wanted something new is not really fair IMO.

The one big actual legit reason for Wayland existing is because Xorg ran as root. Beyond that, everything else could have been fixed, at least to a degree where it'd be fine for most things. There were a lot of stuff just dumped out of X11's protocol for Wayland (which is why everyone is coming up with their own stuff!)

[quote=tohur]

Quoting: Adutchman

Quoting: slaapliedje

Quoting: tohur

Quoting: reaperx7I love how Red Hat loves to push (force) people to buggy and incomplete software touting it as "stable" when the truth is far from reality.

Wayland is nice, but the fact that every compositor does everything inconsistent with each other, and often conflicts with how Xorg/XWayland does things, with pretty much everything the original developers intend, pretty much leave me saying "this isn't a good idea".

Honestly, nothing was wrong with Xorg, in my opinion. It works as intended like Windows GDI+. Yes there were some security flaws, but really, what was wrong with Xorg? I honestly see Wayland as a solution in search of a problem, not the other way around. If there was consistency with the compositors this wouldn't be a problem, but Plasma has their own problems, Gnome wants to be the rebellious child, Enlightenment is their own thing, Weston is sitting in the corner rocking back and forth thinking its a tea pot, and God knows what else the rest are doing running around the house aimlessly, but nothing is consistent while Xorg is sitting at the table, well behaved and saying "Oh so I'm not that important anymore? Have fun with the miscreants!" as it sits it's tea and reads the newspaper.

If you think Xorg is well "behaved" and not an issue you do not live in reality.. xorg is a utter mess and needs to go. frankly since swapping to Plasma wayland my PC performs much better

In my mind, the only thing Xorg needed fixing on was a better / more supported way to not run as root. Outside of that, they did all the work to make it modular during the development from XFree86. The problem is that people don't like maintaining old stuff, and want to play with new toys. That's all Wayland is. It'll be a new toy, until it isn't, then someone else will declare that it's crap and no one should be using it and then we'll be in the exact same boat as before...

There are definitely things that Wayland does okay, but nothing they do that is special over X11, and end up still needing compatibility layer to X11...

Performance wise, I notice very little difference between Xorg / Wayland. Like somethings feel a little smoother, other things feel slower. I definitely notice things just not working right in Wayland though. Weirdly, I had an issue where the Synology Drive app didn't want to work in Xorg, but would in Wayland... after a reboot, it was fine though.

I think that isn't true. The reason we need something new is simple: Xorg was released in 2004. Pretty much everything is different now and with software, once it starts doing things that weren't concievable when it was designed, things start falling apart. "Modularity" isn't a checkbox, it is a relative thing. What a module was supposed to be was also thought up in 2004, so that is also inadequate. In 204, screens were 480p, screensharing did not exist, security was not really a designconsideration, VR was still science fiction and Linux desktop Linux was still very obscure. Stating that creating something new was just because people wanted something new is not really fair IMO.

Quoting: tohur

Quoting: Adutchman

Quoting: slaapliedje

Quoting: tohur

Quoting: reaperx7I love how Red Hat loves to push (force) people to buggy and incomplete software touting it as "stable" when the truth is far from reality.

Wayland is nice, but the fact that every compositor does everything inconsistent with each other, and often conflicts with how Xorg/XWayland does things, with pretty much everything the original developers intend, pretty much leave me saying "this isn't a good idea".

Honestly, nothing was wrong with Xorg, in my opinion. It works as intended like Windows GDI+. Yes there were some security flaws, but really, what was wrong with Xorg? I honestly see Wayland as a solution in search of a problem, not the other way around. If there was consistency with the compositors this wouldn't be a problem, but Plasma has their own problems, Gnome wants to be the rebellious child, Enlightenment is their own thing, Weston is sitting in the corner rocking back and forth thinking its a tea pot, and God knows what else the rest are doing running around the house aimlessly, but nothing is consistent while Xorg is sitting at the table, well behaved and saying "Oh so I'm not that important anymore? Have fun with the miscreants!" as it sits it's tea and reads the newspaper.

If you think Xorg is well "behaved" and not an issue you do not live in reality.. xorg is a utter mess and needs to go. frankly since swapping to Plasma wayland my PC performs much better

In my mind, the only thing Xorg needed fixing on was a better / more supported way to not run as root. Outside of that, they did all the work to make it modular during the development from XFree86. The problem is that people don't like maintaining old stuff, and want to play with new toys. That's all Wayland is. It'll be a new toy, until it isn't, then someone else will declare that it's crap and no one should be using it and then we'll be in the exact same boat as before...

There are definitely things that Wayland does okay, but nothing they do that is special over X11, and end up still needing compatibility layer to X11...

Performance wise, I notice very little difference between Xorg / Wayland. Like somethings feel a little smoother, other things feel slower. I definitely notice things just not working right in Wayland though. Weirdly, I had an issue where the Synology Drive app didn't want to work in Xorg, but would in Wayland... after a reboot, it was fine though.

I think that isn't true. The reason we need something new is simple: Xorg was released in 2004. Pretty much everything is different now and with software, once it starts doing things that weren't concievable when it was designed, things start falling apart. "Modularity" isn't a checkbox, it is a relative thing. What a module was supposed to be was also thought up in 2004, so that is also inadequate. In 204, screens were 480p, screensharing did not exist, security was not really a designconsideration, VR was still science fiction and Linux desktop Linux was still very obscure. Stating that creating something new was just because people wanted something new is not really fair IMO.

LMAO you missed that date by like 20 years bruh.. X11.. aka Xorg was released in the 80s..

You're 100% incorrect. X11R5 and X11R6 were created in the 80s, and there were many X Windowing systems that were created to use those standards. XFree86 was the free/open source one. That was thought to be a stagnant block of code, so they modularized it, and created Xorg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X.Org_Server (I see Purple Library Guy beat me to this).

(Apologies if the quotes are messed up... they turn into giant blocks of text)

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Quoting: ObsidianBlkThis is wonderful for Japan, Hong Kong, South Korea, and Taiwan! Kinda envious of them, honestly!
Being from the US, it's sad not to see the Steam Deck at a retail store (probably because the US is letting the retail space die, I only say as half a joke). I was in a Best Buy a few weeks ago and stopped when I thought I saw a Steam Deck on display. Got a little excited thinking "Oh wow, Valve is finally putting their console in stores!"... then I realized I was looking at the Ally and immediately was saddened.

Not to rain on the Ally's parade at all! I love that there's competition in the mobile console space and bringing those prices down, but, I will admit I'm a Steam Deck fan boy of sort and I just really think it'd do even better if it was available in a way that Grandma and Grandpa could get one to give to little Tina or Timmy for the holidays.

Also, I have the original Steam Deck and would love to see/feel the new OLED version in the flesh (so to speak) to really see the difference before deciding to spend money on it.

I agree, I'm quite shocked that Valve hasn't tried to work with the few brick and mortar stores around, like Walmart. Though I guess some of them have questionable pay rates for their customers. Hell, even selling through Amazon would maybe lighten any load of shipping it out themselves. But the Best Buys, Game Stops, etc would be a good place to see them.

Kind of sad that so much of the shopping experience is going away. There definitely are things where it sucks to buy them online, like clothes, for example.

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Quoting: Jarmerclipboard issues? You mean copy paste? I've been running Wayland in Tumbleweed for about a year now and I've never noticed a single copy paste issue (if that is what you mean).

X11 has two clipboards. You can highlight / paste with middle mouse button. Or the typical highlight -> Control+C -> Control+V.

This seems to be app dependent on Wayland. Like with my example of the Nitrokey app. Right click on the systray icon, there is a menu where you can select the slot -> slot name, and it should copy the password into the clip board so that I could paste it into KeePassXC (or KeePass2?) to unlock my password file...

In Wayland that no longer works. I keep meaning to try it under KDE, but forget to. It works fine under Xorg on Gnome though.

Shmerl gets what I'm saying. While I'm not surprised that KDE has settings for the clipboard... still kind of weird :P I know I played with something called gclip(?) that had a clipboard history in Gnome, but it kind of ignored if things were passwords....

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Quoting: Pengling

Quoting: ArehandoroWith all due respect, for me Minecraft is not a game

No, seriously, I thought GTA was the first xD

I still love the mental-image of a very blocky crime-sim.

Kingpin isn't quite blocky, but the Reloaded came out yesterday or something!

My favorite GTA is still San Andreas. Being able to buff up your dude by making him ride a bicycle, or fatten him up from eating too many burgers was awesome.

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