Quoting: GuestSounds like bad news as all the app developers will transition to flatpak and paid services. There will be few free FOSS developers left and this will likely leave distro repositories empty. I'd also expect that the open source movement will die as app developers seek to protect their revenue and close their code so they can continue making money.

Overall I think this is bad news for linux

This is a very good thing. The app developers that were already wanting donations could ask through github, or wherever. All this does is make that more visible. Now what I think would be bad is if flathub (mind you that's the 'store' vs the client) decides they should get a 30% cut of that... While I understand doing money transactions have a cost, that should be the limit of the charge they get.

This would give a huge benefit for those who have been on the fence about releasing Linux versions of their software for decades, universal packaging? Check. Being able to monetize your product? Check. Giving someone else a third of your profit? Nope!

(Note: It's a universal package, except for Ubuntu which you have to go through some hoops to get flatpak instead of snap (for example, I could never get the Ubuntu store to work with flatpak instead of snap, you have to install the gnome-software app.)

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Quoting: Klaas

Quoting: slaapliedjeNot sure what the immutable filesystem has to do with anything, you are aware you can pretty much do that with any distro at this point?

You are getting worked up over a default setting and say that a comparable default setting doesn't have to do anything with the topic. Seriously?

Ha, how does an immutable root have anything to do with another distro enforcing other people to not have default packages so they can push their own crap? This isn't Ubuntu saying Ubuntu will not ship with flatpak by default (it already doesn't) it is saying that flavours based it can't, which they are not all hosted by them. That is where this is garbage. Not sure why people don't see this... it is a method of control, and stinks of desperation.

(Edit: it doesn't affect me at all, as I stay away from all Ubuntu spawned distributions. I had hogh hopes for Pop_OS until they decided they were doing their own DE...)

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Quoting: mr-victory

Quoting: Boldosthe package is marked as *Verified developer* e.g. Microsoft, or JetBrains or Spotify

Coming Soon(TM) to Flathub, the about page of beta website now mentions "verified apps"
https://beta.flathub.org/about

I thought it already had this? At least that is how I knew the Discord flatpak was unofficial qnd that Firefox is an official one.

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Quoting: Tuxee

Quoting: slaapliedjeAnd people who are basing their builds off of Ubuntu because of their more frequent release schedules are now being mandated to not being able to give their users choice. What constitutes a 'flavor' in their mind? Is that Kubuntu, or is it things like Linux Mint / PopOS. Some of them still use the Ubuntu repos. This just seems like early shots to try to eliminate competition.

Well, you could ofc inform yourself. (But I assume that's "work" and just less fun than ranting.) Well, you would have learned that distros named *ubuntu are flavors. Mint, Pop_OS!, Zorin, elementary, KDE Neon and a gazillion other ones are separate distros which can ship whatever they want.

Right... I know the difference. Do you? They still use or mirror Ubuntu's repositories. If Ubuntu decides in another year to remove flatpak from their repos, then users will have to use PPAs.

There is a reason Mint has a debian edition. For basically this very reason!

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Quoting: Tuxee

Quoting: slaapliedjeLet's say SteamOS had been built upon Ubuntu. None of those awesome utilities would be available without some nonsense. I'm betting most of them are not there as snaps.

That's one stupid "argument"...
What utilities are we talking about? Steam Deck specific ones, I suppose. Why should I have them on my Ubuntu desktop? Anyway, if the Deck was Ubuntu-based it still could provide flatpak support, because why not (IT'S NOT AN UBUNTU BRAND for chrissake) or the tools would have appeared in the snap store. Because again: Why not?

Steam/Valve doesn't officially support these tools. They do support flatpak out of the box. These are not the type of tools that would be allowed necessarily in the snap store. And no, they are not Steam Deck specific, you can just as easily use them on a desktop. What I was saying is if it was Stubuntu (steam/ubuntu) as a flavor, so Canonical could have influenced that restriction.

Quoting: Klaas

Quoting: TuxeeWhat utilities are we talking about?

The original argument falls flat even in comparison what Steam OS does that Arch does not – e.g. read-only root file system and preinstalled Steam client. Arch comes without preinstalled flatpak as well.

Not sure what the immutable filesystem has to do with anything, you are aware you can pretty much do that with any distro at this point? The Atari VCS does the same thing with AtariOS based on Debian.

The whole nonsense of Ubuntu declaring their flavours (that they don't even support otherwise) can't have flatpak installed by default is just a very poor cry out that 'please use our snaps!' You can't even use the ubuntu store if you rip out snap, you have to use gnome-software.

After my latest attempt to use Ubuntu... it will be the last time I attempt it. Will stick to Debian, Arch, Fedora for my uses, depending on the particular thing I need it for.

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Quoting: Tuxee

Quoting: const

Quoting: Tuxee

Quoting: furaxhornyxNot sure about all this, but would this mean that Canonical may want to get rid of PPAs as well, one day, because they don't have near-total control over it ?

They already have or actually won't have to since PPAs were never installed by default. It's precisely the same situation as here: You actively have to add PPAs and you actively have to add flatpak support. (Even Google doesn't actively prevent you from installing alternative stores on your Android phone - it just has to be an explicit decision by the user.)

I'd absolutely agree if Ubuntu just deactivated all flatpak repos by default. No issue with that. But the software needs to be there and when a user clicks a .flatpak or .flatpakref in their browser, it should work - maybe with a warning, yet without searching the internet for a solution.

But IT HAS NEVER BEEN THERE. Using standard Ubuntu you always had to install flatpak support explicitly.

Right, this is about them forcing derivatives to not be able to have it there by default. Let's say SteamOS had been built upon Ubuntu. None of those awesome utilities would be available without some nonsense. I'm betting most of them are not there as snaps.

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Quoting: BoldosWell, majority of the discussion so far is about the technology itself: how open or not open it is, how slow/fast it is, what can/cannot be run with it etc...

But I'm missing another typical use case topic in the discussion:
The "security/trust" level of "let me install the app I need for work" things. Especially when used "professionally" as a daily workload driver within a company.

And even if not necessarily directly visible, the >security< question of things is always floating somewhere around when OS and apps are installed and run inside a company network.

And - with regards to installing apps from external stores - this usually translates into certain level of "trust": When installing the app, I do/do not trust the source that it will most probably e.g. not install malware packed with it (unless intentional -> looking at you Google & Micro$oft... ). This applies especially when installing 3rd party apps, which are not usually normally available in standard official repos (.NET SDK, Rider, Pycharm, Teams, Spotify, ...)

With Snaps, I *can* have that certain level of trust, because there is a trusted (by me) publisher verification authority (Canonical) working behind the scenes, so if the package is marked as *Verified developer* e.g. Microsoft, or JetBrains or Spotify, I trust it is really them and not that proverbial "some anonymous person somewhere in Nebraska" who packaged it on his/her PC and then published it to the store with whatever hacks attached inside.

In my opinion this critical topic is totally omitted with Flatpacks/Flathub.

The problem with snaps is that only Canonical has access to what goes there. And they don't have the manpower to curate everything like Apple does. Which is how things like that 2048 game slipped in that had a bitcoin miner attached to it.

The beauty if flathub is you can see on each app page whether or not it is a trusted upload by the developer, for example; Firefox is, but Discord is not.

But this isn't even the problem to me. The problem is that Ubuntu pretty much is a fork / rebuild of Debian. And people who are basing their builds off of Ubuntu because of their more frequent release schedules are now being mandated to not being able to give their users choice. What constitutes a 'flavor' in their mind? Is that Kubuntu, or is it things like Linux Mint / PopOS. Some of them still use the Ubuntu repos. This just seems like early shots to try to eliminate competition.

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Quoting: whizse

Quoting: Craggles086Does this make Civilization one of the longest running games franchise?

Elite predated Civilization by a few years, but Elite Dangerous bears little resemblance to the original Elite, whereas Civilization is technically the same game.

Wikipedia got a list of the longest-running video game franchises, because of course it does!

Both Civ and Elite are on it, but maybe not where you expected them to be:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_longest-running_video_game_franchises

Looking at Oregon Trail... hiw does that qualify? Seems they mostly just kept remaking / porting it. The 10 year gap seems to be ignored a few times just to make sure it got number one. Then again, I just died of dysentery.

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Quoting: Boldos

Quoting: ZlopezI'm not sure why Canonical doesn't want to have flatpak installed out of the box, but they sometimes do strange decisions, like Mir or Unity. Not bad projects but they were the only one using them and dropped them after some time.

I'm not sure why people keep bashing Canonical of doing "bad" or "strange" decisions/projects all the time.
Upstart was there before anyone even heard about that second weird thing called systemd. But it is Canonical who is the bad guy yet again for choosing their own path?

Oh c'mon...

Honestly for upstart their bad path could more logically have been ditching it in favor of systemd. But then again, the 'mothership' of Debian never adopted upstart, so they went with the path of least resistance there. Mir is a valid complaint though, as instead of spending developer time on Wayland, they wasted it on trying to make their own thing... which would have ultimately caused a huge amount of fragmentation. But you are correct, upstart isn't really in the list of 'wtf, Canonical?

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Quoting: Craggles086Does this make Civilization one of the longest running games franchise?

Elite predated Civilization by a few years, but Elite Dangerous bears little resemblance to the original Elite, whereas Civilization is technically the same game.

I wouldn't say that. Elite Dangerous is pretty much the same with a new engine attached. You still fly around and can gather stuff to sell at stations, etc. Guess it all depends on how you play it.
Civilization has quite a few changes, but it seems every iteration loses something that the previous had for new features...

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