Quoting: slaapliedje

Quoting: mylka

Quoting: slaapliedje

Quoting: mylka

Quoting: DebianUserExactly what i was afraid of, and why i can't say if Proton is a good thing or not.

on the one hand you have 1 game from feral and maybe some other devs not porting their game to linux

on the other hand you have 1000s of games you can play, including the ones they would have ported.

imho the answer is pretty clear

I mean... maybe to be a little gross. But isn't this sort of like the short term gratification of getting a hooker... but then later down the road you figure out you caught something nasty and long term are forever cursed? That's kind of what this seems like, bad things long term, for short term solution.

For me, the specific use case of Proton is for games that would never even remotely get a native port. Games that are years old, and no longer supported. Or for games that won't even run on Windows 10.

what is long term for you?
for how long gaming on linux is a thing and nothing really changed?!?!
do you wanna wait another decade? or 2? or 3?

linux needs market share, which you wont get without games/software. with a bigger market share the native ports will come back

Isn't that basically what I said? The problem is we get the short term 'fix' by using Proton. The longer term may never happen now because developers code for 'Proton-friendly' vs 'Native-Friendly.' so we're stuck with never getting the full performance of the Linux system. But instead of longer term becoming a healthy thing where people start seeing the benefits of releasing native software, they just figure they'll sell one version, everyone will buy it anyhow, and there will be no incentive to make a native (hence better performing) version for the Linux users.

My response here is applicable as a response here too.

TL;DR: either market share stays the same, in which case none of this matter, or it will rise in which case native ports will come. It absolutely doesn't make sense for a company to "code for 'Proton-friendly'" because no one is going to have a signicant portion of their revenue at the mercy of some layer they can't control. Simple as that.

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Quoting: DebianUserExactly what i was afraid of, and why i can't say if Proton is a good thing or not.

Disclaimer: I actually exclusively buy games with native support. That said...

The way I see it there are really two possible futures (10, 20 or whatever years from now):

1. Linux doesn't have a big market share among gamers. In this case, it really didn't matter that proton stopped native ports. People just didn't come to Linux to game, and we few should at least be happy we have a way to play games.

2. Linux gets a significant market share. In this case, do you really think developers will continue relying on Proton? If Linux does get a significant market share among gamers, I don't have a doubt that companies will start doing native ports, simply because you can't have a significant portion of your revenue be at the mercy of some translation layer you can't control.

In short, either proton is irrelevat or good. There is no scenario where proton would be a bad thing long term.

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Valve actively asking devs not to port doesn't sound great, though chances are it's because native ports (sometimes done in a hurry) don't work as well as proton, so it makes sense to tell devs to use proton if they are otherwise going to do a terrible job at porting. Valve probably has data here we don't have, so don't be so quick to judge.

Regarding native ports in the future, I think it's pretty obvious. If you are a dev and your game has 20m users on Linux, you *will* spend resources on a native port, simply because the risk of proton breaking your game and you getting 20m angry users is too high. So if the game is successful (and so is deck), it (or the next game from the developer) will get a native port.

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Quoting: sudoerInitially I was excited about the opening opportunities for Linux, but after reading about how you can install other OSes and numerous posts in the Steam forums about removing Linux and installing Windoze 11 because "Linux sucks" by illiterate and ignorant people and trolls (kids and teenagers and even older people don't know about the filthy tactics M$ has used to become a monopoly, nor do they care about it and can't be "ethically moved"), I'm a bit sceptical about Steam Deck's impact on Linux gaming. I think it should have been a locked Linux-only system in order to force more devs actively supporting Linux and to end Epic's chinese lame exclusivity practices. Now Swiney chinese frontman and his shills like pc-gamer are happy about how everybody will use his Store instead, on a foreign system probably running Windoze, (another happy company about it that sees no real threat again), will continue his predator tactics further canibalizing the PC market and devs won't have any reason thinking about Linux or not going to that store since their game will be playable through Steam's Deck. In short terms Valve also benefits from it as people will buy their handheld, but in the long run nothing will change for Linux or it will change so slow again that is going to be neglectable. I think Steam Deck could have been one of the most impactful opportunities for Linux to finally massively break through, one of those rare moments in history which can change the world, but Linux will miss it because Valve decided to do such a compromise that will shoot back.

The reasons you mention against micrsoft and epic are the very reasons this should be an open platform. You complain about exclusives yet you wish for an exclusive platform.

See if you fight violence with violence then you are no better than that you are fighting against. I get that sometimes the same dirty tricks they use against you seem very effective to get back to them (like you could spread FUD by making (incorrect) posts like "tried windows on the deck, it didn't run well etc"), but we are better than that.

The end doesn't justify the means.

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Quoting: Eike

Quoting: dubigrasuI'm pretty sure many will do that, basically almost all the Steam Machines (old and new) were stripped of SteamOS and went full Windows, the same with many Atari machines.
The poor game selection was definitely a factor for that, and hopefully it will be not the case for Steam Deck, but many gamers are enthusiast tinkerers and installing a familiar and proven OS is the least of their worries.

Hm. While I'd be confident to change OS on a Steam Machine - a PC box -, I'd be less confident to do so on a specialized integrated system like the Steam Deck.

I think Valve could easily swy people here. I would agree with you if valve's message was "yes you can install windows but it's not supported" which casts doubts in people. But they actually say "can you install windows? Big resounding yes, [no worries, will definitely work]" which makes people confident they could do it.

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Quoting: Guesti have a feeling MS is trying to win over linux users

The truth is microsoft is losing on many fronts. The one thing they have a lead on (windows) is slowly losing shares to Android and iOS. This is more of a survival move; they are focusing on cloud for one thing, and more cross-platform and/or open soirce software for another. In the particular case of Edge, the only point is to have users default to bing instead of google for search (which is a major source of income for the latter), and no one is going to use Edge if they can't also use it everywhere else (because of browser sync).

Make no mistake, there isn't any good will or "love" coming from microsoft.

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Quoting: MohandevirEdit: And your Stadia exemple is a bad one... I'm quite satisfied with it.

I was mostly referring to people speculating and arriving at the assumption that it would be the netflix of gaming. The dissappointment was immense for most people, even though Google never said it was going to be the netflix of gaming.

I'm not saying steampal is not a device that runs games locally, it probably is, jusy advising against assuming stuff :)

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Don't do the same thing you did with Stadia people. You're making speculations, building expectations then hyping each other about it. Then you get disappointed when the device does not meet those expectations.

For all we know, this could basically be a steam link paired with a controller. It's a "pal", so maybe it's supposed to pair with a PC/seever where the game actually runs.

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If any of devs see this, you might be interested in implementing ANGLE's extension on top of this, which allows the image usage and create flags to be passed from vk to gl. Otherwise the gl implementation has to assume all flags are used, and flags like MUTABLE and STORAGE are detrimental to performance (disallowing framebuffer compression).

https://chromium.googlesource.com/angle/angle/+/refs/heads/main/extensions/ANGLE_external_objects_flags.txt

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Why not just ... manufacture more cards?!

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