Quoting: dannielloGood that Canonical changed their bad decision, but anyway - it means that "Linux desktop" situation is much worse than I thought:(

Sad, very sad situation. It is well known that Canonical is not serious company, but such absurd situation also harmed Valve reputation (at least from Linux enthusiasts perspective).

It is oblivious that Canonical took this decision without consultation with Valve. It means - there is no agreement between Canonical-Valve. No agreement at all!!! Valve set Ubuntu as "recommended distribution" for game developers and Linux users WITHOUT any serious agreement with Canonical to protect their investment!

And you think that there are an agreement between Valve and Apple? Or between Valve and Microsoft?

This whole fiasco is a fiasco of the Linux fanbase, nothing more.

Close to two years ago they announced that they planned to drop 32-bit (IA-32) support and since no one back then voiced any concern they moved forward to the decision they now made for 19.10.

However they didn't silently drop the packages, instead they announced yet again that it would be done. Then they again waited for comments which this time came in droves and after that they changed their mind.

This is how things are done and decided in the real world all the time, the only difference now is that the immature Linux fanbase for some reason decided to run around in circles screaming that the world was ending.

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Quoting: TobiSGD

Quoting: GuestI can see why they want to remove 32 bit libs because it's a ton of work.

But a ton of work for whom? They still get the majority of their packages directly from Debian, throwing a patch on one or the other package and just compile. If Debian still supports newer versions of 32 bit libraries, how much work is there really to be done for canonical?

They get the base source code of each package from Debian, then they have to build the IA-32 version themselves, and provide support themselves. Considering the amount of packages in the repo it will take quite some time to build the packages for IA-32 and that is time taken from building for other archs and so on. If there where no cost for providing IA-32 builds then they clearly wouldn't have planned to throw them out to begin with.

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Quoting: Mohandevir

Quoting: F.Ultra

Quoting: Mohandevir

Quoting: F.Ultra

Quoting: gradyvuckovicAll Valve has to do now is offer some kind of option to run your own remote instance of a gaming PC on a Valve server, and connect direct to it, and they'll have an alternative to Stadia. Buy your game on Steam, download it to play it locally, or stream it to any PC or phone/tablet or TV. Stream it from your PC or stream it from a Valve server. All your workshop mods, your cloud saves, your Steam friends, etc, take them all with you anywhere you go.

Buy Portal 2 and download/install it locally to play on your PC, then stream it from your PC to your TV and play it with any controller you want, then stream it from a Valve server to your phone and play it on the train.

If Valve offered that service for free, (which they probably could because the overwhelming majority of users would prefer local gaming so it wouldn't be a commonly used option), Stadia would be dead on arrival.

For Linux (& Mac) gamers, that would mean all those games currently not playable on Linux, the 40% or so of Steam that isn't quite there yet with Proton, would suddenly immediately become playable via an alternative solution, ie: streaming from a Valve server. Effectively bringing all Steam games to Linux.

Boom, no need to ever install Windows for any game on Steam. No need to buy games on Google's or iOS's app store even, just buy it on Steam and stream it to your phone!

I'm calling it, this is what Valve is working towards. Valve is going to make it happen.

They would also have to invest a number of billions in new datacenters and bandwidth for that to happen on the scale that Valve operates (they have roughly 90 million monthly users) and they would have to build them locally all over the world. The costs of running stuff like this is extreme and is why currently only Google is pulling it off (and we don't know yet if they will pull it off).

The other services described in this thread is nowhere near to compete, Shadow seams to have only a small number of servers in California and Geforce Now seams to have only 300k users with some reports that performance is bad during peak hours (but to be honest I have just spent a few minutes googling this).

For what it's worth I worked as the CTO of a Cloud computing startup 11 years ago and had to design stuff like this.

I have an Nvidia Shield. GeForce Now has a small set of free games included with the service, as standalone games and managed by Nvidia, but and this is where it's getting interresting, you may run Steam, Origin, Uplay and/or Epic launchers inside GeForce Now to play any games in your personnal library on Nvidia's servers (remote computer). Each instances are powered by a Tesla P40 GPU and grapical options are preset for each officially supported games. Stil, no problems running games at ultra for the other games, as far as I witnessed.

Imo, it would be the ideal services if it ran on Linux instances, but I don't think it's what they do.

Thanks for the info! Do you know if the GPU shared or dedicated?

Sorry. I have absolutely no clue on this one.

Edit: All I know is that it's based on the former Nvidia Grid technology, so I suspect it might be shared with some form of "load balancing". Is it the good expression when it comes to GPU workloads?

That can mean many things so that remains to be seen. Since you can play all your Steam and Uplay games I guess that it's just a matter of time before some hardcore gamer manages to get some GPU tool installed to measure if it always performs to 100% or if it appears to be shared.

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Quoting: Mohandevir

Quoting: F.Ultra

Quoting: gradyvuckovicAll Valve has to do now is offer some kind of option to run your own remote instance of a gaming PC on a Valve server, and connect direct to it, and they'll have an alternative to Stadia. Buy your game on Steam, download it to play it locally, or stream it to any PC or phone/tablet or TV. Stream it from your PC or stream it from a Valve server. All your workshop mods, your cloud saves, your Steam friends, etc, take them all with you anywhere you go.

Buy Portal 2 and download/install it locally to play on your PC, then stream it from your PC to your TV and play it with any controller you want, then stream it from a Valve server to your phone and play it on the train.

If Valve offered that service for free, (which they probably could because the overwhelming majority of users would prefer local gaming so it wouldn't be a commonly used option), Stadia would be dead on arrival.

For Linux (& Mac) gamers, that would mean all those games currently not playable on Linux, the 40% or so of Steam that isn't quite there yet with Proton, would suddenly immediately become playable via an alternative solution, ie: streaming from a Valve server. Effectively bringing all Steam games to Linux.

Boom, no need to ever install Windows for any game on Steam. No need to buy games on Google's or iOS's app store even, just buy it on Steam and stream it to your phone!

I'm calling it, this is what Valve is working towards. Valve is going to make it happen.

They would also have to invest a number of billions in new datacenters and bandwidth for that to happen on the scale that Valve operates (they have roughly 90 million monthly users) and they would have to build them locally all over the world. The costs of running stuff like this is extreme and is why currently only Google is pulling it off (and we don't know yet if they will pull it off).

The other services described in this thread is nowhere near to compete, Shadow seams to have only a small number of servers in California and Geforce Now seams to have only 300k users with some reports that performance is bad during peak hours (but to be honest I have just spent a few minutes googling this).

For what it's worth I worked as the CTO of a Cloud computing startup 11 years ago and had to design stuff like this.

I have an Nvidia Shield. GeForce Now has a small set of free games included with the service, as standalone games and managed by Nvidia, but and this is where it's getting interresting, you may run Steam, Origin, Uplay and/or Epic launchers inside GeForce Now to play any games in your personnal library on Nvidia's servers (remote computer). Each instances are powered by a Tesla P40 GPU and grapical options are preset for each officially supported games. Stil, no problems running games at ultra for the other games, as far as I witnessed.

Imo, it would be the ideal services if it ran on Linux instances, but I don't think it's what they do.

Thanks for the info! Do you know if the GPU shared or dedicated?

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Quoting: lejimster

Quoting: F.Ultra

Quoting: lejimster

Quoting: F.UltraThe inclusion of DXVK 1.1.1 is kind of a bummer since it requires VK_EXT_host_query_reset without plummeting performance in some games and that is not available in any of the stable versions of Mesa yet.

For me Vampyr just took a nose dive performance wise when Steam updated Proton to 4.2-4 today.

I've decided to stay on mesa-git. For the most part it's been stable and while dxvk/d9vk etc are being developed it works best with them. Maybe when these projects mature and settle down stable will be a good option, but for right now..

Do you compile yourself? I used to be on the Padoka unstable PPA but was burned for far too many times when his scripts released some binaries when others failed which lead to weeks without X on some occasions.

One could have hoped that DXVK would have kept the old code path when it detects that the necessary extension is not found and then remove that code path altogether once it's been in mesa stable for some time but I guess that it was too cumbersome.

I use Arch, there are mesa-git in the AUR that would allow me to compile it easily. But I prefer to use the unofficial mesa-git repo that is very well maintained.
I have had the odd niggling issues in the past with the development builds, but not for at least a year.. Atleast that I remember. If I ever do run into issues... Thats what the downgrade tool is for, I just revert back to an earlier working version.

Padoka Stable release Mesa 19.1.0 today but it actually made things far worse. Vampyr now freezes every second frame and Wolfenstein II refuses to launch due to some Vulkan init that fails, hope mesa will fix those regressions soon...

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Quoting: gradyvuckovicAll Valve has to do now is offer some kind of option to run your own remote instance of a gaming PC on a Valve server, and connect direct to it, and they'll have an alternative to Stadia. Buy your game on Steam, download it to play it locally, or stream it to any PC or phone/tablet or TV. Stream it from your PC or stream it from a Valve server. All your workshop mods, your cloud saves, your Steam friends, etc, take them all with you anywhere you go.

Buy Portal 2 and download/install it locally to play on your PC, then stream it from your PC to your TV and play it with any controller you want, then stream it from a Valve server to your phone and play it on the train.

If Valve offered that service for free, (which they probably could because the overwhelming majority of users would prefer local gaming so it wouldn't be a commonly used option), Stadia would be dead on arrival.

For Linux (& Mac) gamers, that would mean all those games currently not playable on Linux, the 40% or so of Steam that isn't quite there yet with Proton, would suddenly immediately become playable via an alternative solution, ie: streaming from a Valve server. Effectively bringing all Steam games to Linux.

Boom, no need to ever install Windows for any game on Steam. No need to buy games on Google's or iOS's app store even, just buy it on Steam and stream it to your phone!

I'm calling it, this is what Valve is working towards. Valve is going to make it happen.

They would also have to invest a number of billions in new datacenters and bandwidth for that to happen on the scale that Valve operates (they have roughly 90 million monthly users) and they would have to build them locally all over the world. The costs of running stuff like this is extreme and is why currently only Google is pulling it off (and we don't know yet if they will pull it off).

The other services described in this thread is nowhere near to compete, Shadow seams to have only a small number of servers in California and Geforce Now seams to have only 300k users with some reports that performance is bad during peak hours (but to be honest I have just spent a few minutes googling this).

For what it's worth I worked as the CTO of a Cloud computing startup 11 years ago and had to design stuff like this.

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Quoting: kuhpunkt

Quoting: jens

Quoting: Mohandevir

Quoting: liamdawe

Quoting: kuhpunkt

Quoting: gradyvuckovicFor Linux (& Mac) gamers, that would mean all those games currently not playable on Linux, the 40% or so of Steam that isn't quite there yet with Proton, would suddenly immediately become playable via an alternative solution, ie: streaming from a Valve server. Effectively bringing all Steam games to Linux.

The Valve servers would have to run on Windows, though and I highly doubt Valve would want to pay for those licenses.

No they wouldn't, not with Steam Play once it's mature enough.

I suspect SteamStreaming, or SteamCloud (who knows how they will call that), might happen the day SteamPlay/Proton leaves beta and become official. Simultaneous announcements is my guess.

Edit: It can't be too far away, because Valve risks long term damages, if they let users get accustomed to the competitions' solutions (Xcloud or Stadia).

I wonder if Valve is legally allowed to offer everything in your library as a streaming service just like this. I could imagine that existing contracts would need at least some review. This might also be the reason that official Steam Play whitelisting isn't happen that often, even for games that work perfectly well (e.g. TW3). I'm just speculating here though.

They sure can. Services like Geforce Now and Shadow already do that. You just rent a remote computer with those and access your Steam library from there.

The list of supported games on Geforce Now is very very small: https://www.nvidia.com/en-us/geforce/products/geforce-now/supported-games/ or am I missing something obvious here? Looking over the Geforece Now site tells me that it works just how Jens wondered, aka they must license each game from the publisher before they can add support for it on their platform.

Shadow I have no idea how they work since they don't offer their service in my country and consequently don't want to shed much information either.

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Quoting: Arehandoro

Quoting: liamdaweThe thing to remember about Stadia is that games do have to run on Linux. It's literally Debian under the hood. However, most AAA titles have high levels of abstraction for APIs, since they often run on Windows, PS4, Xbox, Switch and some on Mac, so getting it on Linux with Vulkan for bigger studios isn't going to be a lot of trouble.

PlayStation OSes run on a variant of BSD and that didn't bring us more games from their platform. My opinion is that Stadia running on Debian is more a fun fact that an actual game changer or factor to take into account.

Vulkan, however, might be a better indicative for our interests.

Not really comparable. Playstation used BSD way down below but that was AFAIK not what you developed for when developing games for PS4, instead you developed against a complete Sony API for input, output, disk, network, display and so on. With Stadia they have one closed component but all the rest is pure Linux.

Which is not to say that the studios will release the Linux version ever, what they technically can do and what they will do is two different things.

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[quote=14]

Quoting: eldaking

Quoting: WorMzyI don't think we will see Microsoft actively push software for Linux any time soon.

If we're talking about games, agree. The fact that Visual Studio Code works well on a Linux desktop tells me they are at least trying to support as many people as possible creating things on their cloud platforms, and that means developer tools and frameworks like WSL as you mentioned, Code, and .NET Core.

But what is my opinion of MS? Well... let's just say I've been considering moving to a different part of the U.S. because the tech industry in my area is too entrenched in MS and other old-fashioned vendor relationships for my style.

That they released Visual Studio Code and .NET Core is because they know that they have lost the server developers to Linux but desperately want to still make their technology relevant.

WSL is kind of like Phase #2 in that respect since that is a way for them to say "hey there Linux server developers, you don't need to run a Linux desktop anymore when developing Linux server software". I mean we don't want developers to start getting used to a Linux desktop now are we.

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Quoting: Guest

Quoting: F.Ultra

Quoting: Guest... we need to make sure they know they won't get our support until they support Linux in return. ...

And therein lies the rub, we simply are not in a position where "they" (except a minority of devs) care if we support them or not.

If our numbers aren't big enough to fund Linux support, then our numbers need to get bigger first, obviously. Although I will add that there is corruption/bribery from Microsoft, too, so it's not always a clear cut case of work being funded. Like take DOOM 2016 for example, very popular title, already running on Vulkan, supposedly even had an internal Linux build, but regardless it could have easily gotten enough funding for Linux support in my opinion but didn't, so asking why not is a good question, but that's off topic-ish...

Quoting: F.UltraAnd if we would have been in such a position to begin with then Steam Play / Proton would not have been created either so while the one is due to the other I do think that you have that order in reverse in your argument.

Not understanding what you mean. Regardless, of course I hope Proton/Wine is helping us and getting us more titles with Linux support rather than hurting us, but so far I'm not seeing it. I just hope it's not hurting us at the very least.

Regarding DOOM it indeed would be interesting to hear the real story. I've speculated before that it was never released due to AAA studios always wanting to not just sell a few copies but also make a huge PR event out of it so that they can increase their sales on all platforms. That is why they release it on Switch since Nintendo gives them such an event, exposure on CES and so on which is something that we never can do since we don't have a single controlling entity. Also AAA houses typically only perform releases when they expect millions of sold copies, just a few 100k sales is chump chance for those guys and "not worth it" so to speak.

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