Speaking as someone who is running a system primarily powered by verified Flathub flatpaks, I really like the experience. With less free time in my life, I have really come to appreciate the simplicity that Flathub brings to the table (particularity avoiding dependency issues and offering rollback functionally for buggy software releases).

That being said, there are many "mainstream" apps that really need verified status (my current wish list includes VLC, GNUCash, Steam, Blender, Inkscape and Nextcloud Desktop). Hard disk space wise, flatpaks haven't been too bad either. For 61 apps (and their runtimes) I'm only looking at 21.9 GB. Which in comparison to the games I run, this is nothing.

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Fully switched over to Wayland about three years ago, both work and home. The journey had its rough patches, but I loved the smoother rendering of my desktop and applications. Fortunately, my workflow did not involve any of the past (present?) Wayland weak points, like remote desktop and nVidia graphics.

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Quoting: TheSHEEEPFor desktops, I'm not sure about the use case.

Even without immutability, most big distros are already "it just works" - and in addition also offer more possibility to customize.

What it would offer is more security to not accidentally mess up your system, I'd wager.
But even then, that's what rollbacks are for, so... yeah, I'm really not sure about the use case on normal desktop.

The normal use case for immutability on the desktop, is the same reason immutability is the default on smartphones. I truly believe that the average human sees technology (in all forms) akin to that of an appliance or automobile. You push a button, engage with the controls, and it generates the expected response near every time. After providing voluntarily community IT support for many years, this impression is almost carved in stone within me.

At the core of it, the people I work with want to know very little about their PC (for a variety of reasons). Majority never even change the desktop wallpaper. They push the power button, then expect everything to work and be up to date. The younger ones do some customization, but defaults are king. Their systems take care of themselves and manual interaction is only performed when forced by system prompts. Linux can not enter this space without providing that which the current offerings have, which is an appliance-like nature by default. Automatic stable atomic updates, simple program installation, access to the majority of modern applications, and quick recoverability from technological hiccups are all needed to be baked in the operating system. Due to the functional structure of Linux and its FOSS subsystems, I truly respect the struggle that Fedora Silverblue/Kinoite, SteamOS, MicroOS Aeon, and now Ubuntu development teams are engaged in to make this experience come to light.

Those reading here on GamingOnLinux are near guaranteed to not be the category of people I have described above. Hopefully, the Linux community at large can grow to be more understanding of the need for immutable desktop operating system. Without a doubt, there is a commercial interest from the these Linux companies, but should we not be supportive all the same for getting FOSS into the hands of people who are currently being exploited by non-open systems? Give this time, let's not let snaps vs ostree vs native be the focus, these things sort themselves out. While Fedora Kinoite may be my current go-to recommendation for new Linux users, I am very curiosity to see how things play out on the snap front.


TL:DR Immutable OSes need to come for the masses to engage with Linux and FOSS at a system level. Average people have quite a different perspective on computers than tech-understanding users like the GamingOnLinux readership. On both the commercial and humanitarian fronts, Immutable OSes provide benefits and the established Linux community should do it best to support these efforts (or at the very least not publicly disparage the good that comes form it).

Edit: To clarify, my last sentence was not implying that your specific comment was disparaging. Rather it was direct to the generic Linux user/commentator that might be inflamed by immutables.

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Quoting: Klaas

Quoting: CyborgZetaNothing wrong with supporting the people who make, or package, the software I use.

I wonder how they prevent someone from lazily throwing a package together and selling it on flathub while the original authors get nothing. Similar to what happens on Steam, e.g. https://www.gamingonlinux.com/2022/10/someone-released-the-foss-rts-0-ad-on-steam-without-speaking-to-the-developers/.

Looks like a verification system is in the works alongside the donations. Haven't looked into the details of the gatekeeping method, but at least something is being worked on.

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Quoting: AdutchmanKinoite sounds interesting. Is it Fedora Silverblue but with KDE instead of Gnome?

Yup. Here's the project's official text from their docs:

QuoteWhat is Fedora Kinoite’s relationship with Fedora Silverblue, Fedora IoT and Fedora CoreOS?
Fedora Kinoite uses the same core technology as Fedora Silverblue, Fedora IoT and Fedora CoreOS. However, Kinoite is specifically focused on workstation/desktop use cases with the KDE Plasma desktop.

https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/fedora-kinoite/faq/

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If I remember correctly, Plasma 5.27 is the version which adds initial rpm-ostree support to Discover. This is huge for me as it offers GUI support for updating Fedora Kinoite to both minor and major releases.

Recently, I discovered (no pun) that Kinoite works quite well as a refuge for non-techy ex-Windows 10 users. They wanted a familiar default UI that works on whatever new/old (non-Nvidia) hardware they threw at me, and for my sanity I wanted a distribution that was immutable. Kinoite does this, and does it well considering its young age. I have much less concern with users updating their own OS if it is immutable, just needed GUI support. Hopefully the wait is now over! The cherry on top (for me) is that the last item on my "new user distro must haves list" is being taken care of in Fedora 38 Silverblue (hopefully Kinoite too), which is unfiltered Flathub access.

I guess time will tell if my distribution choice will give future me a load of headaches, but for now it has been a lifesaver.

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Over the years, I formed the pragmatic belief that there does not yet exist a distribution of Linux that is ready for the average U.S. person (for work or gaming). It's a dim view, but hard learnt from my experience. This site's vistorship tends to be quite a bit above average, so the above statement is not reflective of others here, but rather people I work with on the street (tutor).

In general, they don't want to know anything about their computer (mobile device), it just needs to function near 100% of the time and be able to "run the apps/games" and "visit the sites" that they want or need. Updates of any form are met with resistance or pure apathy. Good practices regarding data safety or backups are not considered or understood. As a FOSS advocate, I want to help these people have a safe and successful computing experience, but the lack of motivation/desire/understanding I encounter make it near impossible to recommend any Linux distribution.

Honestly, the Steam Deck (SteamOS 3) and Fedora Silverblue gave me a glimmer of hope for the future. Immutable operating systems with dedicated hardware is Linux's best shot to help non-tech savvy people get onto to FOSS platforms. Systems which update themselves, that can be rolled back from bad updates, and abstract applications from core operations are the right direction.

For the rest of us, I don't see that we have to abandon our "full" distributions and our package managers. We just need a Linux offering that can meet people where they are at (then hopefully lead them to a better place). For my own sanity, I would love a Steam Deck in a laptop format that people could just buy off the shelf.

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Quoting: jordicomaThis, and I would prefer using the distro package manager, it's easier.
Probably it's because I'm using linux for some years, that I think that using the package manager it's easier than searching on internet for an installer, downloading it, executing it, and follow an assistant.

For awhile now, I have been using the flatpak version of yuzu from flathub so that it would integrate with my GUI package manager and CLI scripts. Appimages are fine (barring some rare/random incompatibles with Fedora), but FOSS has truly spoiled me to expect all of my updates in one place!

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Quoting: RaabenI wish more people took this approach as opposed to the usual tribal fighting over which is better. Both Gnome and KDE are amazing projects.

Thank you. When I wrote my comment, that was the exact thing I wanted to offer an alternative too. IMHO, gratitude really needs to be expressed more often than it is (in FOSS and elsewhere too). Also good to hear that Gnome serves you well, its tempted me back a few times. Might have to try daily driving with it again when time allows.

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I'm glad that Gnome exists and takes an opinionated view what a desktop environment could be. While KDE's Plasma environment fits my needs better, I often recommend Gnome to those view technology as just something that should get out of their way while they are accomplishing their tasks. Gnome without extensions does this very well. The polished, beautiful yet minimal-viable compute experience that Gnome offers allows both the technological less-inclined and the power user alike to gracefully complete routine operations. This is a good and necessary balance to the KDE offering. With Gnome and Plasma*, FOSS can offer something other operating systems can't, multiple graphical interfaces to meet individuals' different technological worldviews. Congrats Gnome devs on the 42 release!


*While there are many other DEs on Linux and BSD, I try to keep the list tight based on developer/ecosystem size, and available funding. No offense towards smaller FOSS environments.

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