Quoting: Quote from ShmerlI also don't really understand why big budget games are supposed to be more afflicted by DRM than small budget ones

Because they sell more and and are therefore more prone to being pirated. I'm not defending them either, just pointing it out. The draconian styles of DRM (rootkit etc) you see with such big titles under Windows is not acceptable to me and I've never bought any such titles. This is where they actually make pirating an appealing option! At least where installing no-cd style cracks comes in.

Quoting: Quote from Hamish

Quoting: Quote from n30p1r4t3It's sad, but that basically means you'll never play all these new AAA games coming to Linux. Can you honestly do that?

I look at you with sadness for all that you have missed in your life, as it does seem like a smaller world than what I have been able to experience. The fact that you look at me the same amuses me.

I enjoy my gaming, and do not feel any great loss from my desire to keep it DRM free. But even if I did, it would be paltry compared to so many of the other things that I have been forced to deny myself, by choice or by fate.

At least with gaming, like so much else in my life, I can take pleasure in taking the road less travelled.

Hamish, I read that and thought "wow, did he really say that". You're coming across as somewhat condescending and I hope you didn't mean to :)

Maybe you like the thought of yourself as some kind of martyr or visionary, I don't know ;) I've faced a lot of hardship and problems and consider myself a moral and ethical person. I'm also a realist and have to deal with said problems every day. Steam is one of the pleasurable aspects to my life.

This has probably already been said but i felt i would add my opinion anyway.

DRM isn't a fixed value. It has a scale from GPL3 Pure Software to EA's SimCity (never again). My tolorance is that if it does not get in your way then its not a problem. If it gets in your way but balances it with meaningful features (aka steam) then its ok. I find DRM useless and a handicap to both developers and users since there hasn't been a form of it yet that people havn't surpassed, even SimCity got a singleplayer copy via piracy in the end. But if developers want to add it then as long as its kept in balance its all good with me.

Steam is an example of good DRM. It manages the game so you don't copy it and give it to your friend but allows you to play it unhindered and also installs updates, fourms and trading cards. It also manages the installation and Valve themselves provide limited support. Steam has been regarded as spyware and adware but honestly you could say the same thing about cinemas. They advertise films so should we stop using them? And even some particulary winey people will have their way as you will be able to share your games with your *family* so really there is no excuse anymore.

The problem lies when this isn't the case. Uplay/Origin have both done things to the extreme to block out priacy but to do nothing but harm the user. Things like having the game menu as a web page (Battlefield), which is NOT a good feature. SimCity went a stage further by only allowing online play which was also a feature as you could link to friends, but that inconvienced quite a load of people and didn't balance it.

Anyone who plays games with all DRM on and dosn't care is a very patient person who i admire but honestly we shouldn't have to deal with it. On the other hand those that refuse to play games just because it uses steamis a concern. If you want to do that then i also admire you for taking the hard route to remove DRM which would be great but we don't live in a ideal world like that.

EDIT: I changed my argument a bit because it didn't quite reflect what i meant.

I guess it boils down to the FreeSoftware Vs Propiatory argument. Some people will go to the limits of Stallman to keep their views but most will allow the door open a crack to not miss the games they love.

Sorry that went on for ages. But there is my views, shoot them down at will.

TL;DR= DRM isn't the same meaning to everyone, some is worse than others but play at the level that you feel comfortable at.

Quoting: Quote from fabertaweHamish, I read that and thought "wow, did he really say that". You're coming across as somewhat condescending and I hope you didn't mean to :)

The notion that not being able to play AAA would break me was condescending. The fact that you are shocked that I would respond by considering that notion to come from a narrow sheltered viewpoint leads me to think much the same of you. Sorry if that offends you, but that is what I think.
 

Quoting: Quote from fabertaweMaybe you like the thought of yourself as some kind of martyr or visionary, I don't know ;)

In some ways I am, but not really in gaming. And that was kind of my point - I do not consider it to be a big deal. There are areas where I have had to make much greater sacrifices to consider myself to be a moral person, or things I had to give up just out of plain necessity. The fact that I had to wait almost a year to play Goblin Menace was annoying but hardly tortuous.

Quoting: Quote from fabertaweI've faced a lot of hardship and problems and consider myself a moral and ethical person. I'm also a realist and have to deal with said problems every day. Steam is one of the pleasurable aspects to my life.

And does that mean I can not criticize its faults?

Quoting: Quote from Half-Shot*snip*Steam is an example of good DRM.*snip*

Well, that is an interesting position - I guess if it demonstrates one thing, is that we have forced people to switch their arguments.

Quoting: Quote from Half-ShotAnyone who plays games with all DRM on and dosn't care is a very patient person who i admire but honestly we shouldn't have to deal with it.

How exactly is this admirable? Patience does not have virtue unless it has a point.

Quoting: Quote from Half-ShotIf you want to do that then i also admire you for taking the hard route to remove DRM which would be great but we don't live in a ideal world like that.

I live in a world where I can play games without DRM. THIS IS NOT SOME IDEAL - IT ACTUALLY EXISTS!

If there is one thing that surprises me about my life, apart from the fact almost no one I encounter can pronounce my name, it is the fact that so many people seemingly make claims that what I do in life is either impossible or non-existent. That puzzles me.

Now, I must admit this post is not terribly constructive - I am going to be lazy and leave the heavy lifting to Shmerl again. Sorry Shmerl.

All praise Hamish, the Pope of DRM gaming. The real pope chooses not to have sex, Hamish chooses to not play DRM games. Now can we all shut up and let him limit the games he plays based on his beliefs while we enjoy playing all the games we want? 

We all know it's a lost cause. Living without DRM will get you no new games unless the developer chooses to release them. And with Steam rapidly becoming the standard of PC game distribution, DRM-free will be a thing of the past unless it's an indie game or made by CDPR. 


Have fun Hamish, some of us just like sex too much. ^_^

Quoting: Quote from fabertaweBut those that don't use Steam have less choice, so you are accepting a lack of choice. I have the same choices as you, plus Steam.

So, in essence it means what I said above - there is a lack of choice. It's not something that I accept or not - it's the fact. We can try to influence that, like for example voting with our wallets by preferring DRM free distributors and developers. But you aren't fond of this approach.

Quoting: Quote from fabertaweAnd it's not the same as needing Windows to play. Windows is an OS, Steam is not.

It's similar to some degree. Like games which come out for Windows only essentially say: either use Windows or skip us (ignoring Wine for a moment), so games released for Steam only say: either use Steam or skip us. Similarity of the lock-in problem is pretty clear here.

Quoting: Quote from fabertawe

Quoting: Quote from ShmerlI also don't really understand why big budget games are supposed to be more afflicted by DRM than small budget ones

Because they sell more and and are therefore more prone to being pirated. I'm not defending them either, just pointing it out.

DRM does not affect piracy, therefore I still see no logical and proper reasons why big budget games would suddenly be more in need of DRM than small budget ones. The budget should have no bearing on the DRM stance of the developers or publishers from the pure logical standpoint. Yet it seems to have it for some reason. And as I said above, I think that's because legacy publishers are less sensible people, and most of the big budget games are still funded by legacy publishers (though this starts to change slowly with crowdfunding).

I've heard one other hypothesis though, why some publishers use DRM. They know that DRM does not prevent piracy, but they use it for completely unrelated reasons. For example to cover up their faults. If the product turns out to be a commercial failure, in order to avoid being blamed for incompetence, they'll point fingers to pirates, and say - "see, we had too many lost sales, but we aren't sitting idle. We pushed DRM everywhere!". I'm not sure how valid such hypothesis is overall, but in some cases this can be true. Surely in some other cases DRM is used to control technology progress or stifle competition. Either way, in practice it never has anything to do with piracy.

Quoting: Quote from trollMcGeeWe all know it's a lost cause. Living without DRM will get you no new games unless the developer chooses to release them. And with Steam rapidly becoming the standard of PC game distribution, DRM-free will be a thing of the past unless it's an indie game or made by CDPR. 

I am playing plenty of new DRM free games. Although I do wonder why I am bothering to reply to someone called trollMcGee.

Thanks for the summary Mirv. It is constructive to restate my posts with a little less angst. ;)

The new metro? DRM. Euro Truck Simulator? DRM. Portal? DRM. Left 4 Dead 2? DRM. 


Unfortunately software is driven by corporate greed. As long as the myth that DRM stops piracy exists, games will always use DRM. 

But you all are correct, no matter how hard one tries, piracy will still happen regardless of DRM. The amount of piracy of a game with DRM vs. a game without DRM will never be known however. 

Quoting: Quote from Half-ShotThis has probably already been said but i felt i would add my opinion anyway.

DRM isn't a fixed value. ... If it gets in your way but balances it with meaningful features (aka steam) then its ok.

I never see any DRM as being OK. And also, why should suddenly features like ease of installation and incremental updates (found in Steam) be related to DRM? They have nothing to do with each other. Steam can very well have all those features while being DRM free, yet it doesn't.

Don't forget that DRM is not an isolated problem. DRM is the cause of wide range of derivative issues, such as anticircumvention restrictions which are shoved in everyone throat in a completely antidemocratic fashion through various DMCAs, ACTAs, TPPs and other such junk. So if you accept any degree of DRM, you as well endorse its derivatives like that.

Quoting: Quote from Half-ShotAnyone who plays games with all DRM on and dosn't care is a very patient person who i admire but honestly we shouldn't have to deal with it. On the other hand those that refuse to play games just because it uses steamis a concern. If you want to do that then i also admire you for taking the hard route to remove DRM which would be great but we don't live in a ideal world like that.

I agree with Hamish here. I'm not sure what world you live in, but I don't find it hard to avoid DRM whenever possible, including not using any DRMed games. DRM free gaming is actually not scarce at all. Just look at GOG and Humble Bundle. If anything, it's video which is the most afflicted industry. You can barely find any DRM free content, except for DVDs, where DRM is obsolete and irrelevant.