Quoting: Liam DaweWhat do you think?

I think you're correct.
There are only 4 gaming platforms: Win, PS, XB, Switch
Game devs can't be bothered with more than that. Linux native games are disappearing from Steam.
Even Apple caved in and created a Proton-like translation layer for macOS (unsupported for now, but still).

Why do you keep doubling down on making people who prefer native as "zealots" and trying to belittle their preference as just a "minority" in this and other places now? I get being fine with Proton, or not wanting it at all, or somewhere in the middle. That's all up to whatever someone wants to do and I personally don't care. But honestly it feels a bit dishonest, like you're purposely being provocative on the issue after you got upset that it came up in recent conversations here and other opinions surfaced, and made it clear that one side is not welcome to bring it up here while the other is.

That said, I definitely prefer native and will encourage it/go out of my way to grab it on release if it's a game that interests me. I'm not sure of after the fact porting like Feral/Aspyr are the way to go; I appreciate all they did and at the time they were a godsend but they were always playing catch-up instead of being included from the get go so quality and delay were a fact of life.

I can't say Proton doesn't provide the better experience in many of those cases. I'd wish developers would properly start with cross platform in mind so we had good version instead. That's a reason I try to put my money where my mouth is there. I do plenty on Proton, but esp with a big backlog, those get put on my Waiting for Big Sale list for sometime in the future.

Quoting: RaabenWhy do you keep doubling down on making people who prefer native as "zealots" and trying to belittle their preference as just a "minority" in this and other places now

Refusing to play a game just because of Proton is absolutely zealot behaviour.

The definition of Zealot:

Quotea person who is fanatical and uncompromising in pursuit of their religious, political, or other ideals.

It's pretty clear, "other ideals", the ideology of being Native-only or nothing. That literally by the definition is a Zealot.

Also, it's not belittling to say a minority is a minority. You can't seriously believe Native-only Linux gamers are the majority? Lol.

Quoting: RaabenBut honestly it feels a bit dishonest, like you're purposely being provocative on the issue after you got upset that it came up in recent conversations here and other opinions surfaced, and made it clear that one side is not welcome to bring it up here while the other is.

Uh, what? I'm laying out pretty clearly my thoughts on it, and the way things stand pretty factually. Unless you think it's not a fact that Linux gaming is a niche? And that most games do not get ported to Linux? And that often Proton can be far better?

It's nothing to do with recent comments, this video was planned as soon as the PAYDAY 2 article was posted and I've done stuff like it before.

Quoting: Liam DaweIt's pretty clear, "other ideals", the ideology of being Native-only or nothing. That literally by the definition is a Zealot.

Not arguing definition, I said how it came across to me. And there is middle ground between only playing native and not caring at all. To pretend that it's one extreme or the other is baffling.

Quoting: Liam DaweYou can't seriously believe Native-only Linux gamers are the majority? Lol.

I never said that at all. Stop making up arguments. Again, it's the disdainful tone that came across.

Quoting: Liam DaweUnless you think it's not a fact that Linux gaming is a niche? And that most games do not get ported to Linux? And that often Proton can be far better?

Did you just stop reading my post halfway through?

Quoting: RaabenNot arguing definition, I said how it came across to me. And there is middle ground between only playing native and not caring at all. To pretend that it's one extreme or the other is baffling.

I'm not saying there isn't a middle ground, and at no point have said there is not. You're the one who I have clearly touched a nerve here to start suggesting this. In the video I said pretty clearly I wouldn't argue against developers doing Native. But the fact is, we do have an element of the community who are Native zealots and constantly argue about it causing issues. This is part of what the video is about.

Quoting: RaabenI never said that at all. Stop making up arguments. Again, it's the disdainful tone that came across.

Quoting: Raabentrying to belittle their preference as just a "minority"

You literally said it. Again, you're really acting as if I've done a wee-wee in your cereal here. This is what annoys me and how Native zealots constantly come across, like people who argue for and use Proton are somehow being nasty when just laying out the facts of the market.

Quoting: RaabenDid you just stop reading my post halfway through?

So instead of countering, you're now moving into the territory of claiming I can't read. Great job so far :)

Quoting: Liam Dawe

Quoting: RaabenNot arguing definition, I said how it came across to me. And there is middle ground between only playing native and not caring at all. To pretend that it's one extreme or the other is baffling.

I'm not saying there isn't a middle ground, and at no point have said there is not. You're the one who I have clearly touched a nerve here to start suggesting this.

I'm not upset at all, I'm just answering your initial question of "What do you think?".

Quoting: Liam DaweIn the video I said pretty clearly I wouldn't argue against developers doing Native. But the fact is, we do have an element of the community who are Native zealots and constantly argue about it causing issues. This is part of what the video is about.

Fair enough.

Quoting: Liam DaweYou literally said it

No, I never said it wasn't a minority. I just noted that you seem to dismiss them altogether with disdain.
ETA: Perhaps my wording was a bit off. "as just a "minority"" -> "for BEING a minority"

Quoting: Liam DaweAgain, you're really acting as if I've done a wee-wee in your cereal here

Again I am not mad, this is called having a discussion with different views. Responses don't equate getting riled up.

Quoting: Liam DaweSo instead of countering, you're now moving into the territory of claiming I can't read. Great job so far :)

And I agreed with your point there that I originally quoted, which was 3/4 of my entire post. Which is why I said that.

Last edited by Raaben on 13 June 2023 at 4:14 pm UTC

I don't know what else to say in reply really: I'm not treating or attempting to treat anyone with "disdain" but simply lay out the facts. The facts are pretty clear.

- We never got a lot of ports.
- Those that did ports mostly starting winding down or left entirely after Steam Machines failed.
- A fair amount of Linux ports get left broken or abandoned.
- Proton came along, and solved a lot of issues.
- There's a minority in the community that absolutely act like zealots when it comes to Proton. I was once a bit like it with "no tux no bux".
- Right now the Linux user share doesn't support direct ports for the majority of developers.

All of the above is just a summing up of my video.

Again I've said what I felt on a topic and more, so I'm stopping this. I'm not trying to fight back and forth here.

Well yes, it's more like a creative stretch of language calling someone a "Zealot" just because they won't compromise on the software they want to use. If it wasn't for "zealots" (e.g. that bearded Gnu beast Stallman) you might be using Windows. Really, the modern use of the term zealot is a stretch in itself. We do that, a lot of our words have ancient origins that don't fit the modern connotations.

I am grateful for Proton, I play way more games through that than I've ever had Native, but I'm a pretty uncompromising SOB to the point that I don't even tolerate what most Linux distributors do (and even then I change a lot). I'm fussy with my Protons and Wine implementations now, even.

I'm scared to watch the video now.

Quoting: Liam Dawe- There's a minority in the community that absolutely act like zealots when it comes to Proton. I was once a bit like it with "no tux no bux".

This I can relate to. At one point, when the future was bright and we were moving towards HIGHER SINGLE DIGITS of market share, I thought similarly. This never happened and at this point it's very doubtful it ever will.

What Linux needs to make all this stuff moot is someone with a lot of money to do a huge marketing push for years and years, much like Apple did in the early 2000s. I couldn't say who that might be.