Right, and I buy games because they support the OS I use and I decide where I spend my money.

Just for the record, I have plenty to play. :)

Right and I buy plenty with big discounts. I buy games as a gamer interested in the game specifically, not just or only because it “supports” Linux with a special native build that most devs say over and over hasn’t really been worth it.

I suppose it comes down to economics. If you don't buy games that don't support the platform, and everyone did it, they could potentially lose what? 500k of profit, maybe? Let's look at Steam Deck numbers (granted if people only bought native games on there, and that was the only library that showed up, how many would actually be buying Steam Decks?) It's already over a million sales of the Steam Deck. Sure there is a chicken/egg problem with that, as no one would have bought it without Proton. Lack of Proton (hence any game compatibility) is likely why the Steam Machines failed (that and the various build and price points). But that's the thing though... if developers actually coded multi-platform from the beginning, instead of doing special native builds in a separate tree... then it's totally worth it. Paying porting houses, and continually having to send patches to them is less likely to be worth it.

The numbers are there; people still release all the ports for the switch, and that's an entirely different architecture. Wonder how many sales independent games get on the Switch?

I don't know about anyone else, but I'm very much more likely to buy a game that directly supports Linux rather than one that does not. Though it isn't the most important thing (like I've stopped buying Early Access games, been burned too many times.)

I asked Ubisoft tech support about something years ago. Was actually shocked they fixed my issue.

I'm glad you had better luck, but I contacted them once over Assassin's Creed Odyssey asking for a non-existent product key. The Ubisoft client was working, I could see my other Steam linked games in there, but the new one just would not "activate".

Ubersoftturd basically said it wasn't their problem, they don't issue product keys for Steam versions. (I didn't even mention the word Linux, by the way).

Therefore, I decided it wasn't going to be MY problem, so I just sent it back on Steam. It's not valve's problem either, it's Ubisoft's activation (I wouldn't even bother Valve with that).

P.S. If you haven't noticed, I am not fond of Ubisoft :-)

Last edited by Grogan on 26 Jun 2023 at 12:36 am UTC

not just or only because it “supports” Linux with a special native build that most devs say over and over hasn’t really been worth it.

I'm not sure if I understand in the right way.

Do you start to have doubts about porting games to Linux x86-64?

Do you think that Linux with Wine/Proton should be another OS/2?

I know that OS/2 lost the competition when games and applications specifically designed for this system were abandoned by companies.

These types of comments about low sales are something that Linux users don't like to hear. In this case, you have some impact on which companies and games you write articles about it.

On the other hand, publishing many games for Windows and Android could generate sales lower than expected by the company. In many cases, companies could be closed down if they invested too much money in a specific game.
In my view, we worry too much about similar issues that always existed on different platforms.

Ubersoftturd basically said it wasn't their problem, they don't issue product keys for Steam versions. (I didn't even mention the word Linux, by the way).

P.S. If you haven't noticed, I am not fond of Ubisoft :-)

It's weird seeing the Ubisoft logo on boxes with CDs of Theocracy and Yohoho! Puzzle Pirates. They allowed two companies to publish the Linux versions on CDs when it was such an unpopular system.

Last edited by gbudny on 26 Jun 2023 at 1:45 am UTC

Games that used eON are a fine example, as are Feral ports. The reality is: every game uses some form of abstraction or translation to get their cross-platform support. What level will people go to before they accept it? Proton runs games you've purchased, on your machine, at a level often very comparable to Windows regardless of how the developer cares for Linux. It should be accepted not frowned upon, but I feel that element of the community will likely never go away.

Speaking of levels, it depends on what level the translation is used at. I'd be pretty confident that even from-scratch ports still use a translator at the source level for the DirectX to OpenGL/Vulkan.

If "wrappers" are going to be used, well, I think Wine and the API translation technologies (and/or Proton, collectively) do it a lot better, hands down. All the devs/publishers have to do is stick to sane uses of established APIs. Do that, give it a nod of acceptance (while perhaps not assuming obligation for support, I'd accept that as I do now) and that's all we should need. We're not quite there yet, but closer, and the Steam Deck strategy can get some praise for that.

Feral did a good job on their ports by personal observations. I have to admit I bought games I wouldn't otherwise have been keen on, simply because I wanted to see quality usage of our technologies in action and to see them get a sale. Things like the DiRT games, and the Tomb Raider games for example. They were very nice, and I hope that when I get back to them, they can still be made to run (otherwise Proton... so unlikely to get completely burned)

All of those eON wrapped games were poor, but some were worse than others. (Witcher 2 wasn't the worst, at least not by the time I tried it on Linux). They were usually still playable if willing to sacrifice pride and think beyond "just look at this garbage! argh". It was good to have at least something for entertainment without having to boot to Windows, in those days.

Right, and I buy games because they support the OS I use and I decide where I spend my money.

Just for the record, I have plenty to play. :)

I'm not specifically arguing against doing that though. More interested on why it's so important? Being native doesn't actually mean you're going to see good support. We've seen plenty of native games vanish, plenty of them break, release without a single bit of testing etc. There's really absolutely no guarantee that being native means anything.

My whole point is just to focus on the games you want, regardless of how they're run. We're here to game right?

Last edited by Liam Dawe on 26 Jun 2023 at 9:02 am UTC

Right, and I buy games because they support the OS I use and I decide where I spend my money.

Just for the record, I have plenty to play. :)

I'm not specifically arguing against doing that though. More interested on why it's so important? Being native doesn't actually mean you're going to see good support. We've seen plenty of native games vanish, plenty of them break, release without a single bit of testing etc. There's really absolutely no guarantee that being native means anything.

My whole point is just to focus on the games you want, regardless of how they're run. We're here to game right?

I think the encouragement for native should still be the thing; if only to make a game's code more stable / diverse. But this means multiplatform from the start, instead of doing 'ports.' Publishers not utilizing the 'export to Linux/Mac' feature of Unreal Engine and Unity is kind of crap for anyone who wants to game on such a platform.

Hilariously, Apple again is copying rather than innovating, and also going to integrate wine into macOS. It'd be interesting if Proton could ever get out from under being in Steam and just integrated directly in distributions (I know there are ways to use it outside of Steam, but some sort of invisible thing like OS/2 with DOS applications.)

Do you think that Linux with Wine/Proton should be another OS/2?

I know that OS/2 lost the competition when games and applications specifically designed for this system were abandoned by companies.

Ha, I said the other day that if ArcaOS actually had a current port of Wine for it, it would be a very awesome alternative for Retro gaming machines! I'd much rather run that than have to deal with Win98 and the service packs that random people online have built.

That is a terrible example.

No, it's apt because there are a lot of those eON monstrosities.

Bioshock Infinite, too.

Every stinking one of those runs like utter shit these days, if they work at all.

The point is, I'd rather have a game working well through Proton.

I don't think it's a big issue because VP published eight games to Linux, and they stopped doing it.

The lack of technical support is just a minor inconvenience. You can use the old version of the operating system or try to troubleshoot it.

Tech support schmeck support... I've never had much luck with that. Has anybody ever tried "tech support" for a software product? You'll be better off asking other users in forums and such. Maybe somebody knows a solution, instead of those canned idiots whose real job seems to be getting you to go away.

The difference is that they are just coming right out and telling you to your face that they can't support every configuration. With games now it's not a big risk (easy to refund).

It depends on who you are talking to and what you are asking about. My experience with things like lost keys and issues with orders is mainly positive. I hate when some companies leave your message unanswered.

IHa, I said the other day that if ArcaOS actually had a current port of Wine for it, it would be a very awesome alternative for Retro gaming machines! I'd much rather run that than have to deal with Win98 and the service packs that random people online have built.

They probably don't have enough money to build and maintain Wine for ArcaOS. ArcaOS has more modern software than Windows 98. It's a nice option to run applications for DOS/Windows 3.1, and you can use it to access the internet.

There is something magical in these old machines with unsupported systems. I enjoy playing some games for Linux on old computers connected to my modern monitor.


Last edited by gbudny on 26 Jun 2023 at 8:02 pm UTC

Thanks for all the comments. It’s good to see we have a vibrant community of assorted views here 🤟

Thanks for all the comments. It’s good to see we have a vibrant community of assorted views here 🤟

Speaking of an assorted view. The grammar of the forum is a bit weird. "gbudny replied to Proton is the only hope? plus so did 1 more people" Ha, always love programming grammar errors, where it doesn't take into account 1 = person. It's like some of the code at work where it has 1th 2th 3th 4th...

I just created an account a few moments ago to give my 2 cents. Surprisingly, I haven't come across many mentions of this point, apart from a couple of posts. I hope that the discussion is still ongoing.

In my opinion, Proton does not pose a threat to developers, Linux, or the Open Source community. While it may discourage developers from creating native Linux ports, I believe this concern is not significant. Historically, native ports have lagged behind their Windows counterparts in terms of feature parity. Even some modern Linux ports currently face issues, like Vampire Survivors, which fails to boot, or Hollow Knight and Skullgirls, which suffer from broken controller support. Keeping up with library updates on rolling release distributions, which is prevalent in most modern distros, can be challenging.

So why do I view Proton as a non-issue? Well, even native Windows games experience problems on Windows. Proton and Wine, on the other hand, provide a safe and reliable environment for both new and old games. For instance, Max Payne 1 and 2 currently have issues on Windows and require user scripts and fixes to function properly or boot at all. With Proton, all you need to do is click play. The community always steps up to the plate when it comes to supporting games because companies cannot be expected to maintain support forever. We are witnessing an increase in the number of source ports for older games, and I imagine this list will continue to expand exponentially over time, which makes Proton even less of a problem and more of a middle-man until a source port for said game comes along.

So why do I view Proton as a non-issue? Well, even native Windows games experience problems on Windows. Proton and Wine, on the other hand, provide a safe and reliable environment for both new and old games. For instance, Max Payne 1 and 2 currently have issues on Windows and require user scripts and fixes to function properly or boot at all. With Proton, all you need to do is click play. The community always steps up to the plate when it comes to supporting games because companies cannot be expected to maintain support forever. We are witnessing an increase in the number of source ports for older games, and I imagine this list will continue to expand exponentially over time, which makes Proton even less of a problem and more of a middle-man until a source port for said game comes along.

Even game porter Ethan Lee made this point, on how Proton is amazing for game preservation and it is! There's no doubt lots of games that work better in Proton on Linux than on Windows. For that it's extremely valuable. Especially so because Valve can (and do) put in game-specific stuff into DXVK, Proton etc.

So why do I view Proton as a non-issue? Well, even native Windows games experience problems on Windows. Proton and Wine, on the other hand, provide a safe and reliable environment for both new and old games. For instance, Max Payne 1 and 2 currently have issues on Windows and require user scripts and fixes to function properly or boot at all. With Proton, all you need to do is click play. The community always steps up to the plate when it comes to supporting games because companies cannot be expected to maintain support forever. We are witnessing an increase in the number of source ports for older games, and I imagine this list will continue to expand exponentially over time, which makes Proton even less of a problem and more of a middle-man until a source port for said game comes along.

Even game porter Ethan Lee made this point, on how Proton is amazing for game preservation and it is! There's no doubt lots of games that work better in Proton on Linux than on Windows. For that it's extremely valuable. Especially so because Valve can (and do) put in game-specific stuff into DXVK, Proton etc.

Let's not forget that Wine itself is amazing for this. Before Proton was a thing, I was able to get the GOG version of Interstate 76 working fantastically within Wine, when you got completely wrong colors when you tried running it on Windows 7.

The grammar of the forum is a bit weird. "gbudny replied to Proton is the only hope? plus so did 1 more people" Ha, always love programming grammar errors, where it doesn't take into account 1 = person. It's like some of the code at work where it has 1th 2th 3th 4th...

A lazy scripter like me would just drop the word people :-)

"username liked your comment on article name and so did 3 more" would suffice. Because "article name" is hypertext, it works to not put it in quotes for readability, too.

Yes well people complained before "and 3 more" or whatever was confusing, I'll never please everyone but this is entirely besides the point of the topic. There's the feedback forum for any issues :)

My opinion on this subject is that Free Software/Open Source games are the ONLY games that truly support Linux.

Reading through article comment threads and forum threads on this site, a lot of people have said proprietary Linux games WILL eventually stop working, because most distributions update, stop maintaining, or remove certain libraries that these proprietary games rely on in order to work.

Free Software/Open Source games rarely suffer from abandonment. If it becomes impossible to run a certain FOSS game, someone who has the time and motivation can get in contact with the developer (or whoever can commit to the code repository) and contribute their fixes in order to get the game working on modern Linux distributions.

Furthermore, I've seen a lot of people saying that a lot of games run better in Proton, but I have yet to see similar complaints about Free Software/Open Source games. And if the Linux version of a certain FOSS game isn't on par with the Windows version, someone with the tools and codebase knowledge can fix those performance issues on their own and contribute their fixes back to the main repository.

My opinion on this subject is that Free Software/Open Source games are the ONLY games that truly support Linux.

Ding... that's the crux of the matter right there. Binary software distribution does NOT play well in our environment. It's always going to be workarounds to accommodate binaries, if you can't fix and recompile.

At the end of day, we still keep playing with wine++ much, but lesser with natives. This is the way, once more how we solving a problem as industry and monopoly specific, with creating our own tools. (wine++) this is the way how OSS+Linux community works. And while we have fully working vulkan why do botter with native-openGL or native-Directx games.... lets play diablo 4 as it works while we dont have to wait proper native client for ages.
thanks to transgaming tech.

What do transgaming have to do with anything? *confused* not only are they now a real estate company, but most of what they did previously was proprietary. They're absolutely nothing to do with anything even remotely semi-modern for Linux gaming.

English isn't everyone's lot in life. I think he meant "translation tech" rather than the name of a faded company :-)

If it wasn't already the name of something (or possibly other connotations of trans), "transgaming" would be a pretty good descriptive buzzword.