Quoting: Liam Dawenot only are they now a real estate company

I had no idea and would have never guessed, that's wild... I almost forgot about Transgaming/Cedega. Now there's some nostalgia from young clueless me new to everything Linux, trying to compile the 'free' version it from CVS. I think I got Morrowind running for the most part and that was so cool to me.

I homestly don't care about Native / Wine etc. because I know I may hit problems either way. I am fine as long as games work one way or another after modifications. If a game does not have native version AND does not work through Wine, that is another thing.

I recognize the importance of Proton to help bridge a gap we sorely need right now. The state of native ports is not good, and it's unlikely to get better any time soon.

But I firmly believe it's important in the long run to actually push developers to support the platform instead of relying on a third-party compatibility layer that could break at any time and be met with "Well that's not our problem, we only develop for Windows."

And I just find it so very tiring how much backlash I constantly see towards the apparently radical idea of wanting to be supported.

Proton exists for those who don't care about official support and I'm fine with that. But I care and it's not what I want. And I'm tired of being told I'm wrong to care.

Quoting: Grogan

Quoting: Talon1024My opinion on this subject is that Free Software/Open Source games are the ONLY games that truly support Linux.

Ding... that's the crux of the matter right there. Binary software distribution does NOT play well in our environment. It's always going to be workarounds to accommodate binaries, if you can't fix and recompile.

Someone want to fix / recompile the original XKobo?

Quoting: missingnoI recognize the importance of Proton to help bridge a gap we sorely need right now. The state of native ports is not good, and it's unlikely to get better any time soon.

But I firmly believe it's important in the long run to actually push developers to support the platform instead of relying on a third-party compatibility layer that could break at any time and be met with "Well that's not our problem, we only develop for Windows."

And I just find it so very tiring how much backlash I constantly see towards the apparently radical idea of wanting to be supported.

Proton exists for those who don't care about official support and I'm fine with that. But I care and it's not what I want. And I'm tired of being told I'm wrong to care.

I 100% agree on this. If we allow it to continue down this road... eventually MS will release a new DirectX that requires Windows 1#, Wine/Proton will be beack to playing catchup, and potentially there could be something built into it that specifically targets non-windows for breaking, and it will be a constant back and forth getting things to work.

Getting developers to support native Linux builds is the ultimate way around this...

Quoting: slaapliedjeGetting developers to support native Linux builds is the ultimate way around this...

Building up the userbase via the tools we have in the meantime, such that if/when developers see the sudden loss of those users it actually hurts them in the wallet, will hopefully be the way towards that.

Last edited by Pengling on 13 July 2023 at 3:41 pm UTC

Quoting: slaapliedje

Quoting: missingnoI recognize the importance of Proton to help bridge a gap we sorely need right now. The state of native ports is not good, and it's unlikely to get better any time soon.

But I firmly believe it's important in the long run to actually push developers to support the platform instead of relying on a third-party compatibility layer that could break at any time and be met with "Well that's not our problem, we only develop for Windows."

And I just find it so very tiring how much backlash I constantly see towards the apparently radical idea of wanting to be supported.

Proton exists for those who don't care about official support and I'm fine with that. But I care and it's not what I want. And I'm tired of being told I'm wrong to care.

I 100% agree on this. If we allow it to continue down this road... eventually MS will release a new DirectX that requires Windows 1#, Wine/Proton will be beack to playing catchup, and potentially there could be something built into it that specifically targets non-windows for breaking, and it will be a constant back and forth getting things to work.

Getting developers to support native Linux builds is the ultimate way around this...

While true, this is something I believe I mentioned in a comment somewhere - it takes game developers multiple years to switch to a newer graphics API. Look at DX12, it's only really just now coming into its own and it was released in 2015.

I don't really see it as a big issue personally. There will be time needed for Proton to catch up for sure but it won't make anything before it suddenly stop working, and of course if / when it happens Valve will have people on it to build it. Microsoft couldn't really lock it down to Windows like you think due to the way it works, it's an API with an SDK for developers to use - just like anything else would need to be reimplemented.

Last edited by Liam Dawe on 13 July 2023 at 4:29 pm UTC

Part of the reason game studios hang back on DirectX is because switching to the newer API alienates more people. DirectX 9 hung on for a long time, because DX10 only worked in Vista+. DX11 only worked in Windows 7+. DX12 is only good for Windows 10+ etc. This is Microsoft trying to leverage DirectX to sell Windows. Other than asshattery, there's no technical reason why DirectX versions can't be ported other than wanting to obsolete older Windows versions. Of course other frameworks might need to be updated as well, but since when has Microsoft ever been scared of sewing more arms onto the octopus when it suits them?

That's not to say devs don't like to stick with familiar APIs too though, of course. They often like using the same engine for sequels, too.

Last edited by Grogan on 13 July 2023 at 4:35 pm UTC

Quoting: slaapliedjeSomeone want to fix / recompile the original XKobo?

I thought to take a look at that but the original "unix" sources are only available as naked .C and .h files, with no project files or anything. Kind of like the bare minimum for providing sources.

So I'm not going to waste my time trying to poke at it because it's non-trivial to figure out the order the files need to be built in, just to get started. It may have been over my head anyway, but not always. I don't really know until I get poking, sometimes it's just a matter of taking a look at includes and finding the right way to define things, or it could have been as trivial as distros not providing a full SDL 1.x package (I have it).

P.S. Actually the above is not true in this instance. I found an Imakefile... gotta get macros and templates in order first to see about that though.

P.P.S Nah, I got imake to generate a working Makefile, but the source is chock full of class definitions and stuff (e.g. string to char conversions and such) that just aren't valid in C++ anymore, the compiler just isn't going to do it and while you could override it with flags and attempt to proceed, it just can't work anyway. Someone could certainly fix this, but that someone isn't me. It's not just that it would be laborious, I can't do it. Again, wouldn't know until I looked at it though.

So yes (point taken?), open source software can be just as broken if nobody capable is willing to fix it :-)

Last edited by Grogan on 13 July 2023 at 6:47 pm UTC

Quoting: Liam Dawe

Quoting: slaapliedje

Quoting: missingnoI recognize the importance of Proton to help bridge a gap we sorely need right now. The state of native ports is not good, and it's unlikely to get better any time soon.

But I firmly believe it's important in the long run to actually push developers to support the platform instead of relying on a third-party compatibility layer that could break at any time and be met with "Well that's not our problem, we only develop for Windows."

And I just find it so very tiring how much backlash I constantly see towards the apparently radical idea of wanting to be supported.

Proton exists for those who don't care about official support and I'm fine with that. But I care and it's not what I want. And I'm tired of being told I'm wrong to care.

I 100% agree on this. If we allow it to continue down this road... eventually MS will release a new DirectX that requires Windows 1#, Wine/Proton will be beack to playing catchup, and potentially there could be something built into it that specifically targets non-windows for breaking, and it will be a constant back and forth getting things to work.

Getting developers to support native Linux builds is the ultimate way around this...

While true, this is something I believe I mentioned in a comment somewhere - it takes game developers multiple years to switch to a newer graphics API. Look at DX12, it's only really just now coming into its own and it was released in 2015.

I don't really see it as a big issue personally. There will be time needed for Proton to catch up for sure but it won't make anything before it suddenly stop working, and of course if / when it happens Valve will have people on it to build it. Microsoft couldn't really lock it down to Windows like you think due to the way it works, it's an API with an SDK for developers to use - just like anything else would need to be reimplemented.

Right, but depending on how MS do it, they could make it really difficult to re-implement. Let's take .NET for the perfect example. While most of it is indeed open source, there are tool chains and libraries that have not been ported to Linux. Look at the Launchbox project and their reasoning behind not releasing a Linux native version of it (they released a port for Android, but that was because it was a port to a different language / set up. Basically a completely different program, for Linux they've outright said they've tried getting it to run via Mono, but too many libraries they are tied to keep them from making a Linux version).

Amusingly, Proton/Wine is already far better at compatibility to legacy software than Windows is. As far new software / DX stuff is concerned though, we just won't be able to tell until it gets here... hell, no one really saw Redhat being bought by IBM, though at that point the writing was kind of on the wall, it just needed them to translate the message what their intentions were...

Look at the moves MS is doing with Windows 10/11. They randomly will change your browser to default to Edge, or force certain things (like searching through the bar on the bottom of your screen) to open Edge. They've patched out registry hacks to move around it. I'm sure if they can find a way to make our lives more difficult because we don't want to run their operating system, they will...